What to tell the customer....

Request and requirement.... should just leave it there

I've got a customer's QA department who's got me ready to do things I'll regret lol. Simplest explanation is that they state standards to be withheld on parts machined by us that we have not been provided with and have not provided the standards when requested.

It seems the personnel in their QA has changed quite a bit and during this time someone has gathered the idea that all vendors are aware of all new expectations. No matter how I explain we do not have the information needed I'm met with why not? I also get "Well I follow the ISO standard" when asking how they process these... ISO is not a standard it's a structure for one

I'm being told our parts are warrantied for 24 months and in it's simplicity means that if they f!@# these up on their end it's our fault(many obvious cases of mishandling).

What do you tell these people beyond F!@# OFF!!! I'm stuck in a never ending email string with one of the dumbest people ever... and I'm talking the I think I'm so smart kinda dumb... so really dumb

I've exhausted all points of contacted to find out the one thing that seems to be stopping us from moving forward, do they require us as a vendor to be ISO or not?? 15 years in doing business with them not once set as a requirement.

I've been letting one sit here on my screen and have not sent..

Request = Free and we don't do free.
Requirement = Time
Time = Money

Pay for it, I'll do it with a smile

See if you can get one of those phones you can reach down....

If you are working to a print that doesn't have the tolerances and standards covered, you are wasting machine time producing parts. It is time your sales staff and theirs get together to re establish the contract and control their QA dept. and their drafting dept.
As for the warranty issue, I would never consider warranty issues after the vendor uses them in their product. You have had no input into that design, if your part meets their specification and it fails; it fails to their faulty design.

art.h said:

If you are working to a print that doesn't have the tolerances and standards covered, you are wasting machine time producing parts. It is time your sales staff and theirs get together to re establish the contract and control their QA dept. and their drafting dept.
As for the warranty issue, I would never consider warranty issues after the vendor uses them in their product. You have had no input into that design, if your part meets their specification and it fails; it fails to their faulty design.

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Customer states a standard on their print such as cosmetic per 01234-56789 which references a standard in there system. What we have is a partial set of standards from 11yrs ago which has gone under many revisions none of which have been shared with us. When originally starting with this customer inspection reports or FAI's were not a requirement as we were subcontracting for them and they would provide the data to their customer. That's not to say we did not perform an inspection but just to our standard not theirs. Parts being returned are passing under their standards as interpreted by our QA. In ex... standard will state per 1234-56789 knicks/dings are allowable as long as they are no larger the .09" and there are not more then 8 within a 2" square. Part has one very small .01" knick in it and it's being sent back.

They have a standard for packaging requirements as well, they claim parts are not packaged correctly and poor packaging is the cause for defects when received. When quoting we do not agree to perform packaging to this standard since this has not been made available to us, but even so I've recently been to their facility only to find boxes of parts we've shipped stacked as high as they could put them on a palled and looked as if someone had been kicking them around the place?!

I'm stuck as of right now, they're currently 50% of our business and the owner doesn't want to "make a waive".

No matter what the issue it is our fault, even when asked to review and submit our findings it's still the same result in that we are responsible. How do I know someone hasn't been handled prior to their inspection especially when it's 3-6 months after the ship date?? Should I just start taking pictures of everything we ship and document it's condition along with it? I thought that was the purpose of have a QA/QC department and create all these reports? I can have all the paperwork and evidence needed to state that what we shipped was within print and as quoted but to these guys it just doesn't matter.


ARGHGHHGAHRAGHGHARGAHGAHGHAGAHA.... it's been a fun couple of days

Jetrocket said:

Customer states a standard on their print such as cosmetic per 01234-56789 which references a standard in there system. What we have is a partial set of standards from 11yrs ago which has gone under many revisions none of which have been shared with us. When originally starting with this customer inspection reports or FAI's were not a requirement as we were subcontracting for them and they would provide the data to their customer. That's not to say we did not perform an inspection but just to our standard not theirs. Parts being returned are passing under their standards as interpreted by our QA. In ex... standard will state per 1234-56789 knicks/dings are allowable as long as they are no larger the .09" and there are not more then 8 within a 2" square. Part has one very small .01" knick in it and it's being sent back.

They have a standard for packaging requirements as well, they claim parts are not packaged correctly and poor packaging is the cause for defects when received. When quoting we do not agree to perform packaging to this standard since this has not been made available to us, but even so I've recently been to their facility only to find boxes of parts we've shipped stacked as high as they could put them on a palled and looked as if someone had been kicking them around the place?!

I'm stuck as of right now, they're currently 50% of our business and the owner doesn't want to "make a waive".

No matter what the issue it is our fault, even when asked to review and submit our findings it's still the same result in that we are responsible. How do I know someone hasn't been handled prior to their inspection especially when it's 3-6 months after the ship date?? Should I just start taking pictures of everything we ship and document it's condition along with it? I thought that was the purpose of have a QA/QC department and create all these reports? I can have all the paperwork and evidence needed to state that what we shipped was within print and as quoted but to these guys it just doesn't matter.


ARGHGHHGAHRAGHGHARGAHGAHGHAGAHA.... it's been a fun couple of days

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I would start adding photos to your QA. Put in writing the request for the said standards. Also request the transmittals of when these documents were transmitted previously.

I do some consulting work for a few companies and they get you to sign an acknowledgement that you are aware and familiar with their various procurement procedures that are on their intranet. Problem is I don't have full access to the documents so its a matter of provide me with copies of the documents I am to comply with and I will read and sign accordingly.

And start looking for work from other customers.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Cosmetics is a big issue with many shops and something often not well defined and understood by all involved...
If they got special requirements, they should send them(or put them on the damn drawing) or at least attach to each RFQ and PO what applies. A few customers have sent me such things before.

thankfully I haven't had many issues in that regard since I try to make sure my parts look better than what they're gonna get anywhere else... But...
Some years ago I was being sent extruded boxes to modify, these came already black anodized and shrink wrapped. It was expected that there would be no scratch or flaking or defect anywhere on the anodized surfaces that showed. Problem is, something like 80% of them were scrap before I did anything to them, contact/anode marks/arcs, flakes, dings, etc and nobody was unwrapping and inspecting them before sending them to me.
So finally after them coming to my shop to check my process and being blamed a few times for their rejects. I went through a whole new case of them, 100 something, and sent back all the bad ones(almost the whole case) without any work having been done and waited. Seems it finally got the message across, soon after that thing died off or became someone else's problem and I was happy. Being in that situation again I would go there in person and open the things in front of them for all to see.

If a customer's drawing that you are working to references internal documents that define requirements of the part, and you don't request those documents after you recieve a P/O to manufacture those parts, then you are at fault.

If you have a paper trail to show that you did request those documents, and they neglected to supply them, but you made the parts anyway then you might be able to dispute it.

The only way that you would be entirely in the clear would be if you have a paper trail that shows they told you to make the parts without the referenced documents.

Many of our customers have their own internal standards covering everything and anything from materials to product marking. If they don't supply them with the drawing, ask for them.

Jetrocket said:

...I'm stuck as of right now, they're currently 50% of our business and the owner doesn't want to "make a waive".

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That should settle it for you. Go on to something else. Don't send snarky emails back and forth to customers, that will accomplish nothing.

If they reject a part for a cosmetic flaw, show it to the owner. He's the one who isn't getting paid, let him deal with it. I understand it can be frustrating, but as already mentioned- make your requests for standards in writing. If you don't get a response explain that to the owner and ask him if he wants the parts made or not.

If you think you are getting blamed for mishandling on their end, discuss with the owner the option of setting a time frame for non-compliance claims. Like 30 days after receipt.

I've warrantied parts for customers when the damage was done by the assemblers. I make a report and give it to the customer so they know what really happened, then I give them a replacement part. It more important to me to keep a good customer happy than sweat a few bucks in material and time.

If their packaging specs are insufficient to protect the parts in the warehouse, package them like the customer wants, then place it all in another box for additional protection. When I send parts to the assemblers, I "armor" the pallet to protect from damage in transit, and I never let the boxes or parts go all the way to the edge of the pallet.

The question I ask myself is: "Will the forklift driver hurt my parts when he crashes his truck into the pallet or slams it into the wall?" If the answer is yes, I fix it.

And every pallet goes out with a big warning label: "CRITICAL SURFACE NO IMPACT NO STACK" It doesn't mean they will comply, but it does slow them down a little.

How can you make parts to a standard that you don't have? The bigger question is why would you make parts to a standard you don't have then ship to the customer? I wouldn't be making any parts until I got the standards.

In medical, if subcontractors send us stuff and they don't have the latest revision all the parts are rejected.

plastikdreams said:

In medical, if subcontractors send us stuff and they don't have the latest revision all the parts are rejected.

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That applies to everything, not just medical.

The PO specifies the p/n,revision, and any DCN's/ADCN's that apply. It's the vendors responsibility to verify they are building the correct part. If they do not have the correct specifications, they can't make the part.

If asked to make a part to a redline dwg, I get the request in writing with a redline drawing dated and signed by the person authorized to make the change. It's good for that order only, and the drawing is returned with the parts.

When my biggest customer (medical) revises a part I supply, they send me the ECO and new dwg. I sign and date the ECO and return it to them, which puts me on record that I am aware of the change. If I make the wrong version of the part after that, no one will ask who is at fault- we know it's me.

If they send me a PO for a Rev B and my current drawing is Rev A, I will ask for the ECO and new drawing.

I'd bet my **** that the customer is SpaceX/Blue Origin/or Boeing.

These shenigans have SpaceX written all over them. I'd imagine the person your dealing with is probably aged 25-35 with little to no practical experience in QA and dealing with vendors.

Let the owner figure it out...

Or

Nothing gets made until they give you the correct paperwork...

If they're 50% of the business, unless you find more customers your gonna get a raw deal....

Time to go the top, how you get there doesn't matter, be assertive (not rude) put your case and don't forget the suppliers ultimate weapon ''your messing ME about is costing YOU money''

If that doesn't work (it usually does) then it's time to take a hike.

And when they say ;- they'll get on it straightaway, (stock big mans answer) ask for a day and time when you will have what you want, ..and hold them to it!

As for 50% of your work? BTFTGTT, and carry the scars, .....yes walking will hurt, ....but IMHO it's like the old western line ''sometimes a mans gotta do what a mans gotta do''

Been there, done that, have a whole closet full of those T-shirts...


Yes, you want to get mad, yes you want to yell, yes you want to tell them what they can do with your "rejected parts".

But in the end, there is only two roads to take.

Polite, authoritative, non combatant and be willing take a bunch of crap while you work with them to get you the info you need to make parts to their standards. Move up or down the chain till you can get answers, blame no-one on their side, even though it very well may be their fault.

Or

Tell them to stick it where the sun don't shine.


I figure I am in business to make money, I'll take some BS to make that happen. If its is a nowhere job...please just go away.


Had one inspector Interpreting his opinion to parts...one in particular was a part we made in multiple configurations, some were turned, others we milled. Inspector liked turned finish of a groove better and would reject parts even though they met or exceeded requirements on print. We went back and forth several times...in the end I milled them, then touched in lathe with a woven pad to appease the guy...enough $ in job and they had alot more work. In this case I knew owner pretty well and he just did not want to be bothers and let me deal with inspector one on one, In this case I was 100% right, but that wasn't getting job past him...and that what I needed to do for more work from that company.

I have also made my own prints to specifications and tolerances not given on their prints and then had them sign off on them before starting. Funny how you can be told to "just make it this way verbally" but when you give them print stating what they said, asking them to sign off on it...suddenly they need to check and find out. Its ok when your arse is on the line...

Last story, I promise...we make parts to light polish finish, No marks or scratches allowed. We individually packed parts in foam then box. For quite awhile this went smooth, few if any problems. Then we kept getting calls saying batch of parts had scratches. They'd send back, and sure enough scratches. One time they were behind on an order waiting on our parts, so we remade and I drove parts out to customer...handed to receiving department. PA comes down for a meet and greet. Shows me around and as we got to their stocking/prepping department we see the guy pulling the sleeves of foam out of box and dumping contents into a bin, then putting into staging trays.
That was the last time I heard about our parts being less then up to par for quite some time.
In short, if you want their business, get your butt in gear and figure it out...dependign on others to do their job is not good enough.

Jetrocket said:

Customer states a standard on their print such as cosmetic per 01234-56789 which references a standard in there system. What we have is a partial set of standards from 11yrs ago which has gone under many revisions none of which have been shared with us.

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In my shop, every purchase order MUST be accompanied by the print, revision, quote number, spec's (if any) OR the PO will not be RECEIVED.
Period.

The energy companies I deal with either seem to either provide every single bit of minutia you can think of, or NONE at all... LOL

Doug.

JS said:

Let the owner figure it out...

Or

Nothing gets made until they give you the correct paperwork...

If they're 50% of the business, unless you find more customers your gonna get a raw deal....

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Here's the problem ... I'm currently in dealings to purchase this shop. I don't want to run a business this way but can certainly understand the need to tread lightly. I've requested all standards in a general email to their QA it has been 3 months of follow ups and still receiving nothing. In all honesty this has been a request for several years but they roll through new personnel so quickly that no one knows what the guy before was doing.

Last Friday I was told that a part could be reworked, I responded "no" due to the fact that stripping the plating would cause enough material to be removed from the surface to disrupt a .03mm true position callout on this part. I followed with a comment that stated parts must be re-machined if not acceptable. My response back was "it may be a risk, but it may also be an opportunity" WTF?! am I talking to confucious himself? Where was the value in that information? The person I'm speaking to is incredibly condescending, rude and unprofessional in every aspect.

There PO's state no requirements in regards to the prints specifications as well as their Terms and Conditions. Reviewing this today I found a line that states the below...

CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGE IN NO EVENT SHALL BUYER BE LIABLE FOR ANY CONSEQUENTIAL, INCIDENTAL OR INDIRECT DAMAGES FOR ANY REASON WHATSOEVER WHETHER OR NOT THE BUYER HAS BEEN ADVISED OF POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES.

I interpret it as no matter if we label or package parts to avoid damages, if they damage it...its our fault.

Like I stated we were not required to hold any other standard beyond the prints dimensional callouts/tolerances materials and outside services when first supplying parts to this customer. It just seems like an issue nobody wants to correct because it requires someone taking responsibility for not properly notifying their suppliers and sub-contractors of these standards they are to be held too. Either that or it's too large a mess for them to deal with and want to pass the buck to us. I personally feel QA is trying to oust us since their chain supply manager brought up the possibility of having vendors become ship to stock and for them to not perform QA for sub assemblies in house.

I used to be told there was an online portal vendors had access to pull up these standards, when requesting our access ID and password contact ceased and was never brought up again. It's a good thing I have emails from 5 years back to show these guys the requests but in the end it just doesn't matter to them.

Like you guys said maybe it's best to bite the bullet and ride the wave, but I can see this thing crashing and the instinct in me tells me to jump!

Not sure if I'm even allowed to post names of companies here but F%^& it, This is a supplier for AMAT.

I'd mentally write the value that that customer represents to the business down to zero when valuing the business as a purchaser. That way, if it ends in tears, at least you will have already mentally written them off and not counted on their income.

If you can turn it to your advantage and keep them, bonus, but it sounds like a really poor business fit.

I've fired clients in the past or added an 'aggravation penalty loading' to their pricing to compensate for the aggravation they caused, but that was software development. These days I'm down to 3 good clients and as I'm mostly retired, if they go away, I'll spend more time doing other stuff so there's no downside. Be different if I had a business debt, mortgage, young kids, dependent wife/gf etc.....

Well, maybe I wouldn't be different too when I look back on the last 40+ years.

PDW

Ahh...your buying the company, welcome to ownership! It is where you do nothing but sit at a desk and get to hang out on phone all day and chat with sales guys.
Or maybe you get to deal with this kind of crap day in and day out, weeding out the problematic order'ers, slow to no-payers and keep material coming in at a steady pace.

Sounds like your dealing with a large company where people only care about their own arse. PA needs to justify cost and have parts in on time, doesn't want to be bothered with hassles of print clarification. Engineering doesn't want to take jobs in from vendors...besides it was good before, let them figure it out. Managers don't want to hear about little people jobs and problems, that's why he has a staff. Staff does not want to take on a problem or be responsible for a change. Basically its a game of not my job, pass the buck with a kick the can twist.

How does this help...well if you want to keep them happy, sometimes you have to figure a way to work with them by whatever means possible...try to find someone willing to meet you a quarter way and work the angles.
For big money jobs, potential big customers...I make myself very available to meet with anyone willing to go over job in question.

PA- they want jobs to flow, makes their job easier. Play to that...you see a potential issue that will disrupt that, can you come in and speak to inspector or end user to verify what they are looking for. Your willingness to go out of your way to do their job, makes their life easier.
Do your homework, bring whatever you can to make their life easier...prints, sample, 1st article, measuring tools...If possible a box of doughnuts. Go talk and go over your concerns...explain your doing it so parts meet or exceed not causing any holdups to work flow. You want their expertise on the matter...try whatever angle it takes. I found many are willing to help when your standing right in front of them with all the issues, documents, parts...if they can't help they may hand you over to someone they think can. I've spent many a day getting answers. Also moving around a company like that, good to hand out business cards at each step. Funny how someone needing something remembers that guy that came down here as he cared as was willing to bust a hump...

Sometimes you get to the bottom of the problem, sometimes you don't...but closing the book on a good customer or potential customer...not a good solution as they can be tough to acquire. Its the bird in hand beats one in the bush cliche...

I would note in your quote exactly what spec you are making parts to, put the customer has 5-7 days to reject said parts, and any other information to cover your ass. I would also note that you receiving an order acknowledgement is an agreement to your terms. This way it is in writing from the beginning.

I have dealt with customers like this and we raised prices on everything we did for them because they were a pain in the ass. They eventually called us on raising our prices, we explained why and they decided to go another direction.

Jetrocket said:

Reviewing this today I found a line that states the below...

CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGE IN NO EVENT SHALL BUYER BE LIABLE FOR ANY CONSEQUENTIAL, INCIDENTAL OR INDIRECT DAMAGES FOR ANY REASON WHATSOEVER WHETHER OR NOT THE BUYER HAS BEEN ADVISED OF POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES.

I interpret it as no matter if we label or package parts to avoid damages, if they damage it...its our fault.

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I don't read it like that. How can you cause indirect damages to a part? That looks to me like they are saying that they will not accept liability for monetary damage claims from some 3rd party (or yourself) with respect to ordering the part, IOW if they order the part, you buy in stock then the order gets canned they don't have to cover the cost of the materials etc

Just my 2p