Whats fair pay these days ?

zberto · Dec 8, 2016

Fairly recently I have been looking for a new gig as either a Machinist, Programmer, Engineer, or some hybrid mix of the three. The reason for this decision is that i feel I am not adequately compensated based on what I bring to the table, also my job offers 0 bennies and I am getting killed on things like health insurance. While I like my coworkers, have good relations with management, and have carved out my little niche, staying at the current shop is a non option.

I feel that given my combination of skills and experience, I would be quite the catch for a lot of shops, yet whenever the question of desired pay comes up and I try to ask for what I deem fair, the people on the other end look at me like i'm an asshole.

What I ask for in terms of compensation is by no means ridiculous and is actually on the low side of what is considered "the going rate". In addition the cost of living in this part of the country is high, and must be taken into consideration as well.

I am not going to post my resume and my skills, but a brief summary says I have an engineering degree, can program (CNC) efficiently, very adept with 3D CAD, journey level machinist, skilled welder (MIG, TIG, stick), business background, excellent mathematical and analytical skills, good verbal and written communication, and generally very good at SOLVING EMPLOYERS PROBLEMS.

The funny thing is when I was unemployed and had basic skills in this industry, employers were all over me because they knew I couldn't say no.

Now that I have solid skills and a proven work history in industry, employers want me and my skills but they play the low-ball game like i'm some unemployed dirtbag who walked in off the street.

Without turning this into a rant I am curious if others have experienced this phenomenon or what shop owners have to say.

Mike1974 · Dec 8, 2016

Well, it could be your resume looks too good? What I mean is, it sounds a little out there to me. I mean, for example, I used to be able to mig and arc weld, but
1) arc welding is old, and I haven't done it in probably 20 years
2) I did ok with mig welding, I am sure I could get pretty decent with practice

I would not mention either of those on a resume, maybe if they asked in the interview I would. I can also do fixture design, but that is a side aspect of being a good machinist/programmer IMO, so that is like a footnote maybe in resume.

What kind of "compensation" are you looking for? I would think 100k would be top end, but that would include programming multi axis machines, setup, troubleshooting, superior cad/cam skills, etc etc. That kind of money would probably also have to be earned over a couple years at job. I would not think you would get in the door starting at that?

SBAER · Dec 8, 2016

What does an engineering degree mean in the States. In Canada it means you go to an accredited university for 4 years and are able to apply to be a professional engineer after a few years of experience. I figured I was pretty well the only professional engineer that actually spent a good part of my day operating machine tools and fab equipment.
I found that the only way to get a premium for having the wide skill set was to become self employed. Large companies that pay well require specialist employees.

Mcgyver · Dec 8, 2016

Mike1974 said:
1) arc welding is old, and I haven't done it in probably 20 years

day in and day with carbon or stainless in the shop yes, but its pretty common for field work where shielding gases get blown away and there are countless applications of specialty rod where its about the only thing to do......just saying it is not at all yesterdays skill.

Mike1974 · Dec 8, 2016

Mcgyver said:
day in and day with carbon or stainless in the shop yes, but its pretty common for field work where shielding gases get blown away and there are countless applications of specialty rod where its about the only thing to do......just saying it is not at all yesterdays skill.

I didn't know that. I never hear it mentioned anymore so I ass_u_med it was outdated. :reading:

Of course I don't work in the fab world either so... :hole:

countryboy1966 · Dec 8, 2016

Fair pay these days from a management perspective is the minimum compensation you will accept yet continue to work. Then they will be shocked when you find an opportunity from the next shop that offered the ol' $1 carrot. Then they will bitch and moan that they can't find anyone worth a shit these days because manufacturing is so whored out anymore that the smart ones stay away.

Clive603 · Dec 8, 2016

Probably a considerable element of jack of all trades - master of none issues when offering a wide range resume. Employers tend to look at folk for relatively narrow jobs so a guy with wide experience part of which covers a specific job tends to be looked on as an improver type at best. That is someone who has the basics can do the "simple" stuff but it probably a slower worker right now and will need a few months to get fully dialed in and up to production speed. From an employers point of view there is a risk that you never will get fully up to speed so if they pay the full going rate they may end up getting only 4 days production for 5 days pay.

Someone like yourself is probably best fitted for what I call a glue role. On the design, developent or management side thats a person who has a decent grounding in more than one aspect of whats going on so can act as the glue filling in the gaps between higher, but narrower, skilled specialists. On the floor thats a person who can fill the gaps for several trades when there is a bit too much work in various areas but not enough to hire another specialist in any.

Glue people tend to get grown inside the firm rather than hired. Indeed the way a firm runs is often strongly influenced by the particular skill set of their glue people. At least thats my experience having been one for most of my career. Helps if you can point to one or two high skill specialities appropriate to the job you are seeking and get hired on those. That way the other stuff is a bonus. Biggest problem with being a glue person is getting out or getting promotion. I lost out several times on moving up in my specialities because the other stuff I bought to the table was too useful where I was.

Really you need to carefully tailor your resume for each job.

Clive

Rewt · Dec 8, 2016

Really you need to carefully tailor your resume for each job.

Truer words were never spoken.

michiganbuck · Dec 8, 2016

I think with not having the good luck factor one has to go up the ladder of on the job experience so the best job may be 5 or 10 years and 3 or 4 jobs down the road from first earning the trade title. One may have to travel to where the good job is and change ones personality, appearance, resume, how you talk and what you talk about, have an interesting story, nice smile and hobbies to get in the door of the best job.
Best shops have a PR person looking for the right kind of person as much as the best experienced.
My niece Sandy is that PR person at a world top shop…If one has any attitude or something that does not make them a right person or a quirk that make them not fit in her view..then the application goes in the dead category. *One has to face the facts that it is not about what you think of your self but how you appear to the person giving the job.

Coach sports. Scout leader, Good hobbies all play a part of impressing the interviewer.
For a graduate Machinist, Programmer, Engineer $12 $25 $35 $45 are common.

QT: [I feel that given my combination of skills and experience, I would be quite the catch for a lot of shops, yet whenever the question of desired pay comes up and I try to ask for what I deem fair, the people on the other end look at me like i'm an asshole.]
If you made $15 at your last job you rated that much...for the $15 guy to ask for $35 is not logical.

Gordon B. Clarke · Dec 8, 2016

zberto re your OP then without knowing what you regard as fair then, speaking for myself, I find it impossible to comment. Your "... and generally very good at SOLVING EMPLOYERS PROBLEMS" could be read as somebody that came across as a smart ass to those that decided wages.

Have you any idea of what you'd get if you worked at another shop/company in your area? Wages are more about supply and demand rather than "fair" so you've got me wondering if you've just had a bad day and needed to let off steam (rant) or whether you've looked around for another job opportunity. It boils down to "Nothing ventured, nothing gained". Have you even any idea where you are on the wage totem pole where you are?

Ever tried talking to someone from a trade union as they are usually up to date on what's happening with wages?

Something to ponder. If you find my post annoying then maybe your employer finds you "remarks" just as annoying as you don't seem the type to suffer in silence.

No matter what good luck but chances are you'll have to move to get what you'd regard as "fair".

Shawnrs · Dec 8, 2016

How long have you worked at your current place or how many jobs have you worked at over the last 5 years? This is one thing I look at when I interview people and the more places they worked in a short time frame sends up a red flag. Second I would never say I problem solve employers problems. Those words kill an interview fast. Depending on where you are looking for a new job would base your pay as a starting/skilled wage. I would say when I read someone resume I see too many people over stating their skills as if they think they are really good at what they can do. I try to keep my answers short and simple with the employer who is hiring me.

Last employers are never going to pay you what you feel is a fair elite wage. If you want 100k they are looking at probably 60-70K at best. Too many people claim they are very good at their job and their fancy resume states it. I have been burned by guys with pretty resumes and fancy words in interviews. I think today people need to prove their skill level and negotiate money through a trial basis. If you meet certain criteria then you get a raise after 90-120 days but if you do not meet the criteria then you stay at the same rate or you are removed.

powerglider · Dec 8, 2016

whatever you think is a "fair wage" keep in mind that the very minimum any business would want to hire you and pay you that wage is if it's OBVIOUS to them that you would help that company make at least 2.5 times that wage in PROFIT (most of the time much higher ratio than that). Why the heck would anybody hire anybody else unless they expected to make more than they paid out is what quite a few employees just never take the time to realize (I'm not saying that is you as I don't know you). So first thing is you need to find a business that is making a good profit and is expanding. Most of the time they see if their current top employees are wanting to work overtime. Paying an established employee they already know to be efficient overtime pay is better for them in many ways. So you need to find a business that is expanding and workers there don't want more overtime. How many are within your travel range that you have visited? If you find such a business you also need to prove to them you can do the work. You think you can but it's up to them to test you and come to the same conclusion.

JNieman · Dec 8, 2016

I'm in a similar boat as you, it sounds like, though I'm shy of having completed my degree. I typically sell myself as having a wide variety of skills that allows me the agility to flow into the needs of the company at any given time, able to adapt and grow in any/many direction/s as opportunities arise.

I find that no one values the agility and ability to "do it all" and they just want to pay you what any one skill is worth, more often than not. Even in small businesses, where you'd think they would want a guy who can be left alone to "do it all" and not worry about a lack of ability, or having to hire 4 people to do 1/4 of a day's work every day... whereas 1 guy could do all four 1/4s in a day instead.

To put it shorter: Say you're a machinist, an engineer, and a fabricator. You don't get the pay of all three, obviously, as you only work one job. But it seems, anymore, that you have to fight tooth and nail to get more pay than any single role, despite the value you bring to the table.

Good luck. Sorry to be a downer. I'm bitter about it, too.

DMF_TomB · Dec 8, 2016

zberto said:
Fairly recently I have been looking for a new gig as either a Machinist, Programmer, Engineer, or some hybrid mix of the three. The reason for this decision is that i feel I am not adequately compensated based on what I bring to the table, also my job offers 0 bennies and I am getting killed on things like health insurance. While I like my coworkers, have good relations with management, and have carved out my little niche, staying at the current shop is a non option.

I feel that given my combination of skills and experience, I would be quite the catch for a lot of shops, yet whenever the question of desired pay comes up and I try to ask for what I deem fair, the people on the other end look at me like i'm an asshole.

What I ask for in terms of compensation is by no means ridiculous and is actually on the low side of what is considered "the going rate". In addition the cost of living in this part of the country is high, and must be taken into consideration as well.

I am not going to post my resume and my skills, but a brief summary says I have an engineering degree, can program (CNC) efficiently, very adept with 3D CAD, journey level machinist, skilled welder (MIG, TIG, stick), business background, excellent mathematical and analytical skills, good verbal and written communication, and generally very good at SOLVING EMPLOYERS PROBLEMS.

The funny thing is when I was unemployed and had basic skills in this industry, employers were all over me because they knew I couldn't say no.

Now that I have solid skills and a proven work history in industry, employers want me and my skills but they play the low-ball game like i'm some unemployed dirtbag who walked in off the street.

Without turning this into a rant I am curious if others have experienced this phenomenon or what shop owners have to say.

.
.
many places pay is based on how hard it is to find employees and how fast employees leave cause they got a better job offer.
.
without current (not too old) degrees or certifications saying you are engineer or welder or many things will not help get a job. if anything it may get you labeled as over qualified or will not be happy at only jobs available. adding welder to resume is double edged often it gets you labeled as lower pay worker. that is top highly skilled or multi skilled employees do not do much welding. full time welder is better paided than a part time welder.
.
even programmer or even cnc operator that is very much dependent of machines that you have experience with. easily a different cnc and you could easily have a month of training to learn to use it. programming is very much the preference of how the senior head programmer wants programming done. often doing it a different way even if it gets the job done will create serious problems.
.
i have seen plenty of even cnc operator jobs where you had to learn setup sheets how things were called, what was expected, slang terms for stuff. easily can take months
.
last job i got hired as a jack of all trades 56 other people applied for the same one job. many employers will ofter lower than average pay and see if anybody takes the job. only after not finding anybody a considerable time will they slowly increase starting pay til somebody accepts job offer
.
many jobs you starting pay is low and after you prove yourself you get raises every year til you are up to company average. very rare to pay starting employee more than everybody else as that would upset the rest of the employees

motion guru · Dec 8, 2016

If you were in my part of Washington State I would be asking you . . .

What kind of engineering degree?
Where did you go to engineering school?
Where did you learn to weld and what kind of welding have you done?
What modeling software have you used and what kind of drawings have you made from the models?
What kind of CAM packages have you used and for what machines were you developing G-Code?
How would you go about solving this Yoyo problem # 7.29?
What do you like most about your present job?
What do you like least about your present job (besides compensation)?
What are you going to do that will drive me crazy?
What would you almost pay me to let you work on vocationally every day?

Certainly there would be follow up questions to each of the above questions based on how you answered them. If you were a perfect fit skills / values / culture wise with my company . . . a salary of $65k/year + full benefits would be reasonable place to start. If you prove yourself reliable, competent and you fit in with the rest of the team . . . a 90 day bump would be expected . . . if not, then coaching would ensue if there was a sense that you need some of the rough edges taken off. If it requires more than removal of a few rough edges, the we would not likely get to 90 days.

jamscal · Dec 8, 2016

Sounds like you're qualified to start your own business and set your own pay.

Antarctica · Dec 8, 2016

+1 on much of what motion said.

If you've got an engineering degree from a decent school, then I assume you want to be paid an engineer wage. Companies always 'say' they want well rounded people that can adapt to different rules, but in my experience, thy only say that, what they actually hire are specialists/guru's that they can be assured can handle a complex, specific task.

Few companies who are going to hire you based on your engineering skills are going to be interested in paying an engineering wage while you work in the shop welding some shit up because that's the part of the job you enjoy. They're paying for an engineer and they want a piece of engineer ass. The same goes for programming machines, running parts, CAM, and any of the other non-engineer stuff you listed.

Write your resume to the work you want to do or the work you want to be paid for and you can expect to be interviewed and compensated at that level with some factor for (real) experience. If you want to make more money that most engineers, you learn how to manage, and do even less fun stuff at work.

Antarctica · Dec 8, 2016

Oh yeah, and presuming you have 5-10 years experience, I would guess $75-$100k doing engineering work based on what you said and presuming you actually have engineering experience and have not been 'out in the shop' for the past 10 years manning a bandsaw.

DMF_TomB · Dec 8, 2016

i have known places to try to hire at $17/hr and waiting literally years before finding no job takers and then trying to offer more pay.
.
i call it fishing. some might assume company wants to fill a job quickly. often the opposite. they will take years to find somebody willing to work at the lowest pay rate.
.
many jobs are one trade or task. companies are willing to pay nothing extra if you can do other stuff. they rather hire 2 people cheap who only do one trade at cheaper pay rather than 2 people that can do 2 trades at higher pay.
.
multi skilled often is taken as master of no trade. trouble is they really want someone good at one trade

Conrad Hoffman · Dec 8, 2016

I'm pretty much a jack of all trades. No degree. Over age 60. I find it best to work contract and doubt I could find a regular position at this stage of the game. Health care just went up again and I'm beginning to think it's impossible to earn enough money to keep up with it. IMO, your best bet is people/companies you already have dealt with. I've worked with more or less the same core group of people for the last 40 years, at 3 or 4 different companies.

Whats fair pay these days ?

Plastic

Diamond

Hot Rolled

Diamond

Diamond

Hot Rolled

Titanium

Hot Rolled

Diamond

Banned

Stainless

Stainless

Titanium

Diamond

Diamond

Stainless

Hot Rolled

Hot Rolled

Diamond

Diamond

Similar threads