Originally Posted by viper
"I have NEVER lost money on a job and do not plan to if I can help it. "

Apparently, Viper never losses any.

EXACTLY!!!!

When I first started out 10 yrs ago, I quoted a job for a fairly new customer. I did maybe 4-5 jobs for them at the time. They sent me a "big" job to quote. Well, big for me at the time, about a $15K job. I sent my numbers in, got the job and then realized I miss quoted the material BIG TIME. I was sweating over calling them and trying to some more $ for the job. I left it alone and decided to take my lumps. A few days later the owner of the company calls me and says their purchasing agent made a mistake and needs to have the job requoted. I told them it will be a higher amount because of my mistake. He told me that's why it needs to be requoted. I was too cheap and he wanted to see a young guy like me make it in the industry. Talk about a blessing from above. I still have that customer(he's one of my best) and he and I have become really good friends over the years.

I'm also confused, so I went back to the start. Here is the first paragraph written by the OP:

"In a nutshell, I quoted a couple parts for a new company. I typically quote what I can do them for and roll on. On this deal, I decided to quote a bit low on purpose because we cannot seem to get any aero jobs lately due to people whoring themselves. I guess I joined the list. They immediately accepted and sent me a PO. Now I am sitting here wondering if I have any leverage to adjust my numbers to at least make something on these. My concern is any deviation from my quote could piss off a new customer, however, I know from experience a "new" customer does not mean shit. They will undoubtedly send out for quotes on every part so doing this job really does not firm up any more business."

After some fumbling around, we got to this:

"I just caught an honest mistake on my quote where I quoted the wrong sized billet for the job. I told them I could rebid or bow out. The new billet will be another 15 dollars. No wonder these people are excited to see me. I hate to do it but I would rather piss off a new customer than lose money right now."

Then when some posted to man-up, and do the job he quoted, he came up with this:

"Not sure if there is anything to make of this but they submitted a RevB drawing in here for quote but put RevA on the PO. I called them on it but have not got a resolution on that yet. Is this a common error? I have never got a rev error on a PO."

So I guess I'm still lost as to what exactly went on here. I guess I took it as he doesn't have any work and wanted to see if by lowballing he could get some. When he actually got some of the lowballed work, it didn't look like it would be easy money, so now he wants a graceful way of getting out of the quoted price?

Personally. I would've done the work as quoted, even if it meant making nothing on the first job for a new customer. I'm not afraid to admit that a couple years ago I had been chasing work from a large customer that didn't want anything to do with a 1-man band like myself. Late one Tuesday afternoon THEY called ME looking for a price on a rush fixture they needed by Friday morning. No other shop could drop everything and do it right away. While talking on the phone, the head of engineering emailed me a sketch of what they thought the fixture would look like. I figured it would take me 2 good days ($1000) + materials ($150). I had them over a barrell, and could've charged even more if I wanted. Instead I told them I would do the job for free if they supplied the materials, just so I could show them what I could do. I also wanted my name on their approved vendor list and in the computer system in their purchasing dept. I did that job, and since then have done at least $50,000 more for them. I've never regretted the lost income from that first job. I hate making sales calls, especially when they aren't productive, so 2 days of work that ended up being productive in the sales area was a win/win for me. I would again consider doing a first job cheap for a new customer if I thought it would lead to more work. Others may disagree.

Point taken,........ think my confusion comes from not being told the whole story from the off.

F'K it!....... the waters come over me waders again.

Exactly.
Which is why I have always said, I would rather have fewer customers, but better customers. If you demad respect, you 1st have to give it. This is especially the case in the customer/vendor relationship. You have to show them that yes you are out to make a $, but not out to screw them. Once you have shown that you are a man of your word, very few will question what you tell them again.

Again, no, you guys do not have all the info on this situation and I am really not sure why I asked now... There were errors on both sides of the fence. It is VERY typical in aerospace to send shit out for quote and not have a clue as to what is even needed. Then they just want a number returned. I have learned over the years NOT to dick around with hand holding on new customers because most of them just want to see your number and could care less who you are or what you can do.

They missed the rev on the drawing, critical calls outs on the drawing, assembly process, etc. I am NOT saying they are scum,,,,,, matter of fact, we are tooling up for the job right now. They worked with me, I worked with them, in the end, it all worked out. Did I quote low, yep... Again people are saying to buck up and make " no money" when in actuality, between their errors and my own, I would have "lost" 10K. Now if you guys can "suck up" 10K, you are much wealthier than this shop. I would simply rather lose a "new" customer in which I have no ties or relations, than piss away 10K on the hopes I can royally screw them later.

These are decent people. They later understood that they sent half a drawing and I just do not have time to play the game and put 3 hrs into each part quote only to get low balled. They hold nothing against me, I hold nothing against them... The only thing now is all these people wanting to smack me for growing a set and putting my foot down when I realize I can only bleed so much....Lets move on..

You cant ask for opinions on a situation and then get all pissy when people give you opinions you dont like. Just sayin.

As long as you can sleep at night with that explanation.

Life is funny sometimes. I hear guys whine that they bid all kinds of jobs and don't get any becasue of all the "scumballs" who bid work for little or nothing above what it costs to run the job. I get requests for quotes from customers like this all the time, and if price is their highest concern I don't even waste my time looking further. They will ALWAYS find someone willing to quote their job at what I would consider a loss. In theri case it just might be they need the meager income to keep the roof over their head for the next month, and all they want is the $$$ not the profit.

Sure it's not long term thinking, but perhaps they are in survival mode. The problem is the next parts the customer wants he'll shop only based on price and there will always bee someone hungrier than you or I. If you're dumb enough to jump in the ring and throw out a low bid just to see if someone bites, and then you get the bid, the honorable thing to do is suck it up, man up, admit you made a mistake and honor the quote. Or walk away and take your lumps and accept that you might not do business with that customer ever again. I NEVER go back to a customer looking for extra dollars even if I misquote. My customers always get the price we agreed upon with no haggling.

Oddly enough I rarely have to bid jobs. My customers repect the work I do, the quality is the best I can achieve, and because of our automation I rarely get underbid, except for work headed offshore anyway. We both know what the going price is for a fair product and they always have a manufacturing allowance that they designed their aprts to meet. If I can do it for that, great, if not I typically help them redesign it so the part can be made affordably. Often I help re engineer the parts or design them from the getgo for ease of manufacturing, which saves us both $$$. Few shops want to do anything other than build to a print. It works because the customer knows they will pay only what was agreed, their parts will be done on time, and to the standards they needed or better. It's just not that complicated.

When my suppliers try the lowbid, and then raise the price when I come to pick up the parts I get really annoyed, and never ever go back. I fully expect my customers to treat me the same way. It's important not to play games unless you feel like jeopardizing your reputation.

Lose $10K?

I guess I hafta ask the defenition of "lose", b/c after hearing my BIL use that term a few times as a reason for quiting trucking jobs (Looking for a new line to sign onto BTW) I think that some of our defentions are different. And of course they very well may be as some of us spell the same werds differnt, the meanings may vary with those other spellings as well?

My defenition of "losing" would be that the selling price is less than the material and perishable tooling costs. If you are employing (?) then the cost of someones labor could be an issue, provided they wouldn't have been sweeping the floors otherwise. Is this the same equassion you guys use?

If "losing money" = only maikng $15/hr instead of "shop rate" of $75/hr = a $60 loss/hr - then we have a daffynition barrier to overcome first off.

If you actually quoted for $10K less than the cost of the material and the perishables, boy - I don't know what to say to that...


I bet you don't post this scenario aggin!



------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

Seems I've heard this proverb before...

A wise Man bids a realistic price and wonders if He will get the work...

A foolish man bids a ridciulusly low price and wonders what to do when his bid is accepted...

Exactly my thoughts as well when I read his post.

Mark.

Seems a little odd that they submitted a Rev B drawing for quote but in reality they wanted a Rev A part made.Am I reading that right?

Once upon a time Down in College Station, a couple of Aggies went into business, buying watermelons in the Rio Grand valley for $1.00 ea.and trucking them up to Colorado for sale. When they got there, they put up a sign, "watermelons $1.00 ea. Business was bad, so they decided to cut the price, finally finding a bottom at $.25/ea. and the quickly sold out, returned to Texas for another load, and quickly sold out. They were encouraged by their success, until one of them decided to check their bank account, which was overdrawn. So, they called an accountant they were acquainted with (also an Aggie) and asked him to review the books & so forth. After a couple of days, he made his report to them.

"buy a bigger truck"

Funny. However, I think you are missing the whole point of contention here.

LOL..!! You better believe it Ox.

I am confident that with this post, some may think I am an asshole or lack business ethics. I took 3 semesters of that stuff years ago... I assure you guys, I live with the bible and my word but this situation is not all out to know so I certainly appreciate the views I am getting.

Lets try this - Customer sends over a drawing. Because if all the missing documentation and info, we have to ass-um-e a few things. We decide to assume the better of the situation and bit accordingly. After quoting, we learn the opposite like surface finish was not called out so we ass-um-e the standard finish. Now we have a call out, and we are "screwed". Quite honestly, the right thing to do was to ask questions before bidding but as mentioned, we get so many of these, we could spend 40hr/week just asking engineering questions that should be provided when quoting. We quote this job with, "uh, no call out means this standard 99% of the time". Now we have the 1% job. We originally quote the job to barely skimp by anyway. With the new info and our screw ups on billets, we are up a creek without a paddle..

The customer understood our position in the matter and that we simply quote what was sent out way. Pretty much like quoting a 1x2x3 block without tolerances. OK, no tolerances, we will assume +/- .030 and roll on if they cannot figure out that they might be needed for a quote.....

I guess when I originally posted, we had just got the PO, then asked about certain specs and got the wrong answer. Technically, there was not enough info for a proper quote but we wanted to honor our numbers anyway but in this situation, it would have meant (Ox) material, chem film, outside processing, etc, would have exceeded our bid before it hit the machine. It was a shit situation but the customer identified our miss, we identified theirs, and we moved on.

Hopefully that helps - a little bit....

I want

Viper, you stated in one of your posts you don't have to quote much of your work, although doing work on a labour & materials basis isn't my way of working, so I'm niether decrying or knocking you for that.

However, quoting / bidding for work is a whole new ball game, and it pays to be aware of a few tricks etc.

It's a game, the purpose of which is to both reduce the price AND delay payment, and consequently full of traps for the unwary,...... and for the record;- I agree, it's a total PITA.

Thoughts on quoting, especially with unknown customers.

With, shall we say? ''less scrupulous customers'' details are often missing, and I'm sure some deliberately, in the hope the bidder will guess etc etc.
It's shady practice because it's not a level playing field, resulting in a game of catch as catch can,.......... which is why lawyers are rich and machinists stoney

Never ever assume anything, apart from anything else, if it's not called out, how can it be priced?.

If in doubt, ASK - the answer and the manner in which it's delivered will tell you a lot.

If you can't get / they won't give an answer explain you can't / won't bid on that basis.

Don't as in NEVER take a verbal instruction, especially as in this day and age you can have printed and signed details in minutes.


Apart from the manufacturing details, check the small print, eg packaging, it might look like a part you or I would chuck in a box, they may think otherwise, and use it as a stick to hit you with.

Time spent quoting?...... yes it's tricky and a pain, but I work on the principle;- sorting it out at the start might take an hour,.......... which IME is nothing compared to when the arguments start.

I guess I'll never git it <~ Ox-ism but lets say (by your words) that you get so many quotes that you screwed up 10 out of the 15 and reciecved a PO for the 10. Are you going back to each customer and let them you need to re bid?

I understand reading some of your last posts that you meant that you were going to loose money with the material, 2nd proceses and yada yada before it hit the machine, but how in the sam hell do you miss the quote that bad.? When I miss quote it means I dont make my shop rate by a certain percentage.

I also agree with Limy...If you didnt understand the quote then you either ask questions or dont bid. I thought I was green to the business but you take the cake!!!

Sometimes I can have 5 and 6 hours in a quote easy and even more on a large job! Every job gets the same attention to detail they deserve

Viper, take a moment & step outside your shoes to review this thread & maybe you will see why so many people her have been questioning your business ethics.




From this 1st post, my immediate reaction was that you are trying to get more work into the shop & that you really sharpened your pencil on this job. Then you realized maybe your pencil was to sharp & that you left a bunch of money on the table, do to the quick turnaround on the receipt of the PO.

Believe me, I have had this same reaction when the customer jumps a bit to quick.





By this point you are still looking for a way to weasel out of the PO. Which is a contract as far as I am concerned.



Honest mistake or not, it is still your mistake at this point. Only you can judge how big of a mistake it really was. If you would have literally been taking dollar bills from your pocket to run the job, then you have a tough choice to make.

However, as many others in here have stated, to many people equate loosing money with not making shop rate. Being in the tooling business, I rarely make rate. Either I am below rate on a job, or above. All I can do is hope that at the end of the year, I have more winners than losers.

If when the PO was let, there was a discrepancy between what was quoted & what was released for manufacturing, then you truly do have a ligetament reason to ask to be allowed to re quote the job.

Many times I have gone back to a customer & resubmitted a quote after catching a mistake. However, I have never gone back to a customer looking for more money after a PO has been cut. If I did not catch the mistake before being awarded the job, then tough luck for me. By the same token, after a PO has been cut, I have never gone back to a customer offering a price reduction if I find a quote mistake in my favor.


Take what I have to say for what it is worth, just my $.02. After all, one of the few perks of being self employed is being able to succeed or fail on your own.