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Thread: Lost a customer today......

  1. #41
    Newman109 is online now Titanium
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heavey Metal View Post
    In a machine down situation time is money.

    No time for paperwork.

    The only thing that matters is does machine get fixed or not.

    If you cant fix machine you need to get out of the road and letsomeone else in. ( you are legally liable for the down time from when you say yes I can fix this until you say I give up or f..off and die etc.)

    Averbal contract starts with the yes I can(a verbal contract is as binding as a writen)

    As an alternative you can go back to making parts and not get involved in repair.

    A plus when you fix the problem in spite of bad words , hurt feelings etc. when you have hung in there and completed the job you get to fillout a bill.
    An extra 0 properly placed is an exelent reliever of stress.

    The only difficulty with a verbal contract is that often, the terms cannot be recalled correctly once the matter goes to court. Also, it is very difficult to get resulting economic damages for lost time in the real world of contract law. In the US, one can generally only recover the value mentioned in the contract, which in this case was never specified.

    Good luck to the plater if they sue for downtime.

  2. #42
    Heavey Metal is offline Titanium
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newman109 View Post
    The only difficulty with a verbal contract is that often, the terms cannot be recalled correctly once the matter goes to court. Also, it is very difficult to get resulting economic damages for lost time in the real world of contract law. In the US, one can generally only recover the value mentioned in the contract, which in this case was never specified.

    Good luck to the plater if they sue for downtime.
    What I was trying to say is if you try to collect on the debt than you admit that you entered into a repair contract.

    Also that not having completed the contract you would be liable for the downtime.

    (in this case best to let sleeping dogs lie)

  3. #43
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    WILLEO6709 is offline Diamond
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    If you have a reasonable contact in this place and want to smooth things over I'd stop by at the quietest time ( usually early before the boss shows up), calmly talk to them,,," whoever's fault it was it was a bad day for both of us, I'd like the opportunity to do jobs in the future, but absolutely nothing happens without written instructions". If not, consider it opening up time to pursue more profitable work.
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  4. #44
    Muffler Bearing is offline Aluminum
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heavey Metal View Post
    \

    If you cant fix machine you need to get out of the road and letsomeone else in. ( you are legally liable for the down time from when you say yes I can fix this until you say I give up or f..off and die etc.)

    Averbal contract starts with the yes I can(a verbal contract is as binding as a writen)
    Can you point to a relevant law that states this? First I have ever, ever heard of it. And 99% of repair companies have wording in their quotes/terms that basically say "will not be liable for any cost of downtime". As well as every part you buy off the shelf, etc...

  5. #45
    Newman109 is online now Titanium
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muffler Bearing View Post
    Can you point to a relevant law that states this? First I have ever, ever heard of it. And 99% of repair companies have wording in their quotes/terms that basically say "will not be liable for any cost of downtime". As well as every part you buy off the shelf, etc...

    I think you are correct. As you say, in a properly written contract, such issues would generally be handled by language similar to your quote. There are also such things as liquidated damages clauses where the parties to a written contract can agree ahead of time what damages will be in the event of a bad ending. Generally, however, you simply can't get damages for lost time.

  6. #46
    rj newbould's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heavey Metal View Post
    ............
    Averbal contract starts with the yes I can(a verbal contract is as binding as a writen)
    .........
    Not so... Check whatever sources led you to this conclusion.

  7. #47
    Newman109 is online now Titanium
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    Quote Originally Posted by rj newbould View Post
    Not so... Check whatever sources led you to this conclusion.
    That's right. In fact, it's been said more than once that verbal contracts aren't worth the paper they are written on.

  8. #48
    Heavey Metal is offline Titanium
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    The original question was to bill or not to bill for this particular transaction.

    My position was not to bill for the following reasons: a bill would be proof that there was a contract, it would also have a certain amount of labor charged on it(wich would be used as an indicator as to how much down time the attempted repair caused)

    A verbal contract is as binding as a writen (just not proovably unless documented by witnesses, media etc.)

    Actual damages canot be nulified by any contract (this is why we have liability insurance)

  9. #49
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    When I sent my employee over to help them, he did not look at the machine. They handed him some parts and told him that they needed the shaft turned halfway back and sleeved with bronze to fit the spocket they provided, along with some drilled and tapped holes. They received just that. Then, when he went back over there, they told him it was wrong and he needed to sleeve it for a 1 1/4" bushing. This time, we had to make a new shaft, since the old one was turned smaller than they wanted. In the end, what I think they wanted was simply to sleeve the sprocket to fit a 2" shaft. Why they ever told him they wanted it "milled" back half way and threw out the number 1 1/4" is beyond me. It was a simple job, and with a simple explanation, could have been done with no fuss and no muss, but we are dealing with someone that doesn't know the difference between turning and milling, can't describe what he wants in English and isn't capable of getting a correct measurement with a tape measure. Last week, he wasted an hour of my time trying to sleeve a sprocket and wanted me to key it with a 1/2" key, when in reality it had to be 1/4".......which is why this time around, I had finally had enough.

    Most of the time, when something breaks over there, it is in their barrel line which is over the top of large vats of chemicals. No way am I, or anyone else from my shop going to go over there and climb on top of those vats. That's not our job. We make parts, not fix machines. If they had a real maintenance man with some knowledge, the outcome would have been different.



    Frank


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  10. #50
    Doug is online now Diamond
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    If that happened in my shop I would not bill them. It's tuition.

    "Lesson learned: Never, ever do anything that doesn't have written instructions or a print, even if it's a sketch on a napkin."

    Whether the OP is owed money for his work? I'd want to hear the customer's side of the story before I made that judgment.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockfish View Post

    Lesson learned: Never, ever do anything that doesn't have written instructions or a print, even if it's a sketch on a napkin.

    Frank

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    Well, Frank, that is a very hard lesson. In my opinion you learned it well, and the price was not too bad. You have graduated to "Professional!" That means when you are trying to help your customer, you must drag him, "kicking and screaming," into the professional world with you. Then you only have to do the job once.

    My sympathies...

    Regards,

    Stan-
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  12. #52
    Andrew_D is offline Cast Iron
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    I'd send a bill just so there's a paper trail.

    If they pay...great...bonus!

    If they don't pay and never call again, no big deal.

    If they don't pay, but show up next week with another emergency repair, tell them they have to pay the first bill before the second job gets started (or secretly pad it onto the next bill - whatever you are comfortable with). Then increase your rate for their jobs...it might encourage them to look elsewhere...

    Andrew
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  13. #53
    Heavey Metal is offline Titanium
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    Quote Originally Posted by rj newbould View Post
    Not so... Check whatever sources led you to this conclusion.
    Ok I give up your are right.

    Thankyou very much for the ideas.

    First I am going to trapes my happy but up to the house and put the little woman in the road no need to give up half my stuf right verbal contracts not beeing any good .

    First thing monday I am going to call the credit card companies and get all the money back from those purchaces made over the phone with just a #

    With any luck by noon monday I will be rich footloose and fancy free.

    P.S. dam mondays a holiday going to have to put off to tuesday.
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  14. #54
    Limy Sami is offline Diamond
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    I like ya thinkin Heavy Metal,.......... be sure to let us know how it pans out
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  15. #55
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    Legal lingo ( which I not only hate but thoroughly despise ) for verbal is called HERESAY. Pretty hard to prove anything.

  16. #56
    Heavey Metal is offline Titanium
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    Quote Originally Posted by Limy Sami View Post
    I like ya thinkin Heavy Metal,.......... be sure to let us know how it pans out
    Little woman wouldnt go for it sent me backdown to the shop.

    Credit card company wouldnt go for it either.

    Seem as if those verbal contracts have some merit.

    I guess I am going to have to keep on making parts if I want to eat.

  17. #57
    Limy Sami is offline Diamond
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    Oh well, worth a try

  18. #58
    rj newbould's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heavey Metal View Post
    Little woman wouldnt go for it sent me backdown to the shop.

    Credit card company wouldnt go for it either.

    Seem as if those verbal contracts have some merit.

    I guess I am going to have to keep on making parts if I want to eat.
    I get your humor and understand what you're saying.

    No one ever said that verbal contracts have no merit, only that a written contract/agreement is stronger than a verbal one. Are you going to claim that written and verbal agreements are equal?

    On a serious note, in your examples:

    Assuming that you're married to the little woman, didn't you sign a written marriage license and sign a written marriage certificate presented by whomever married you that you are now married? I know that I did.

    Also, most credit card companies also require a signature on a written application for credit. When the application is over the phone, they record the conversation for their proof of agreement. They can't just say "He called us and we agreed to extend him credit.". Didn't they also send you a written statement outlining the terms of the credit card?

    As it applies to shop work. I'd much rather have the job in writing than get into a "He said..She said" contract dispute.
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  19. #59
    Heavey Metal is offline Titanium
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    Quote Originally Posted by bjorn toulouse View Post
    Wow, compared to our planet, reality is quite different on yours.


    Rex
    Well in my world I am a man of my word and work for people who are the same.

    I have learned over the years that if you cant trust a mans word you dam shure cant trust what his lier wrote in the contract.

  20. #60
    Heavey Metal is offline Titanium
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    Quote Originally Posted by rj newbould View Post
    I get your humor and understand what you're saying.

    No one ever said that verbal contracts have no merit, only that a written contract/agreement is stronger than a verbal one. Are you going to claim that written and verbal agreements are equal?

    On a serious note, in your examples:

    Assuming that you're married to the little woman, didn't you sign a written marriage license and sign a written marriage certificate presented by whomever married you that you are now married? I know that I did.

    Also, most credit card companies also require a signature on a written application for credit. When the application is over the phone, they record the conversation for their proof of agreement. They can't just say "He called us and we agreed to extend him credit.". Didn't they also send you a written statement outlining the terms of the credit card?

    As it applies to shop work. I'd much rather have the job in writing than get into a "He said..She said" contract dispute.

    If you want to get down to it the ultimate decision in a contract dispute is verbal.

    Plaintif and defendant attorneys closeing statements to the jury.

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