Thread: Machine shop liquidation due to family illness

Whats the name of the shop?

America, greatest country on earth!

Who cares if some dumb cancer woman goes bankrupt? She should have saved more of a rainy day fund. Not my fault she was stupid!

America = Greed. Richest country on earth and we can't even take care of our own people. There's not enough money for that sort of thing. Plus rich people need more tax breaks. They don't have enough money yet.

A brutal question that might offend some:-

What is the probability of a full cure or how many years of useful life extension do the doctors predict? Having had one grandparent, one uncle and one father die of cancers and one sister in law that had an easily operable cancer and has survived for 25 years, I know that pouring chemo or radiation therapy into a person that will probably die from the cancer any way is not of benefit to anyone in the family including the patient.

Originally Posted by Mark Rand

A brutal question that might offend some:-

What is the probability of a full cure or how many years of useful life extension do the doctors predict? Having had one grandparent, one uncle and one father die of cancers and one sister in law that had an easily operable cancer and has survived for 25 years, I know that pouring chemo or radiation therapy into a person that will probably die from the cancer any way is not of benefit to anyone in the family including the patient.

It's a very contentous subject I know - but

Having had 2 freinds and a father die in later life of the big C, I can only agree with you, especially when one considers the qulaity of life one of the freind's had with all the chemo and radiation treatment.

A departed doctor I knew summed it up perfectly ;- Never forget, life is a terminal condition.

You two guys can be on the death pannel thst decides who's treatment is too expensive or not.

Originally Posted by John Welden

You two guys can be on the death pannel thst decides who's treatment is too expensive or not.

No John, it is a long held personal opinion, belief if you like, and not based on money.

I believe that free (as in national government funded. and not based on ability to pay) healthcare is a human right.

Sami,in some cases you may be right,but there is such a thing as hope and people are entitled to it.

How do you protect your assets ahead of time for such an occasion?

I regard the gov't as my servant, and I discharge my obligation to him/them with my taxes each year. I have been unable to find anywhere in the Constitution any reference to how the servant became my master, telling me that it is illegal to step off this mortal coil of my own volition.

For all kinds of reasons, I may (at some point) choose to shut down. Most of us on this forum have access to inert welding gases that lend themselves to a very easy painless transition. Helium has been thoroughly researched, and leaves no traces. It is odorless, tasteless, and the body simply is unable to incorporate it into the lungs. You do not feel any choking sensation, and you simply stop breathing within a few breaths.

For all of us, this is a personal decision. I am not advocating it for anyone else.

Originally Posted by machfab

How do you protect your assets ahead of time for such an occasion?

Talk to a good lawyer and accountant and do it when you are healthy and relatively young. Some assets can be put into an irrevocable trust (which is actually revocable if you get sick within a few years of setting up the trust) and be beyond reach for paying some medical expenses, other than the mandatory distribution 401K accounts might also be protected. Each state is different and you need to work with someone who does estate planning for a living to end up in a good place.

You also need to think long and hard about end of life care options and ensure that you discuss this with your family. For many people with terminal conditions, palliative care, where pain is managed and care is provided to ensure a reasonable quality of life often has better outcomes than aggressive care. Palliative care is also a lot cheaper and enables a much better quality of life than spending your last days or weeks in a hospital as a human pin cushion.

Originally Posted by Mark McGrath

Sami,in some cases you may be right,but there is such a thing as hope and people are entitled to it.

I totally agree with you Mark,..... like I said my views are nothing more than a personal opinion, and in no way do I promote them.

Originally Posted by bjorn toulouse

The Co. I work for had 3 distinct options for health care coverage....as of 1/1/13 that will change to 1.

Rex

I hear that after Jan 1, 2013 there wil likely be 2 choises...
1.... you can pay a very large increase imposed by all the insur companies

2.....If that cost is paid by your employer, HE, the employer, has 2 choises, one is to cancel all insur and pay a $1500 FINE.... and tell the employees they are on their own, good luck finding insur on your own... Many small biz companies will do this because its cheaper for the employer, and less hassle....

Originally Posted by oldster

I regard the gov't as my servant, and I discharge my obligation to him/them with my taxes each year. I have been unable to find anywhere in the Constitution any reference to how the servant became my master, telling me that it is illegal to step off this mortal coil of my own volition.

For all kinds of reasons, I may (at some point) choose to shut down. Most of us on this forum have access to inert welding gases that lend themselves to a very easy painless transition. Helium has been thoroughly researched, and leaves no traces. It is odorless, tasteless, and the body simply is unable to incorporate it into the lungs. You do not feel any choking sensation, and you simply stop breathing within a few breaths.

For all of us, this is a personal decision. I am not advocating it for anyone else.

Im pretty sure though that boc will still continue to charge me the bottle rental, even once i pass out! No doubt with some additional death surcharge (they surcharge everything else!) Hence could leave less of my estate than other options. Mind you gassing your self with your cars not legal here any more, you die, you lose your car insurance instantly. Under Uk law a taxed but uninsured car is a criminal offence, Hence it gets impounded + potentially crushed and you get fined. Heck even deaths not a cheap or legal option in the uk any more :-(

Hopefully though we can get the "free" cancer treatments and get cured :-) Then get back to in this case keeping thoes 10 employees off the dole. Its one of the few things we really do have right over here, even if it could do with some polishing and some kinda economy - management fine tuning.

Originally Posted by Mark Rand

A brutal question that might offend some:-

What is the probability of a full cure or how many years of useful life extension do the doctors predict? Having had one grandparent, one uncle and one father die of cancers and one sister in law that had an easily operable cancer and has survived for 25 years, I know that pouring chemo or radiation therapy into a person that will probably die from the cancer any way is not of benefit to anyone in the family including the patient.

There has been just enough of a 'mix' of situations among family and close friends ,, and just enough accumulated mileage, damage .. wot have you... on my own frame to have given that sort of subject a good deal of thought the past two years.

I'm not close to having to make a 'final' decision yet. May not be for years. Or at least weeks ... Cannot honestly say how well - or poorly - I'll face it.

But none of us are slated to get out of this deal alive.... nor ever were .. so..

However else such details pan out, one thing I have committed to following of the many fine folk I have known who have managed it 'somehow'..

There is No Fine Way I'm bankrupting my Lady Wife for a terminal gamble.

She may have 'signed on' for that eventuality. But she's earned better, and she deserves better.

JM2CW, but WTF? No one guaranteed I'd survive premature birth, so I'm grateful as it is.

Bill

Should have been incorporated. There are many ways to shield business assets. Lack of financial planning doesn't generate much sympathy from me.


Gary

Originally Posted by adama

Im pretty sure though that boc will still continue to charge me the bottle rental, even once i pass out! No doubt with some additional death surcharge (they surcharge everything else!) Hence could leave less of my estate than other options. Mind you gassing your self with your cars not legal here any more, you die, you lose your car insurance instantly. Under Uk law a taxed but uninsured car is a criminal offence, Hence it gets impounded + potentially crushed and you get fined. Heck even deaths not a cheap or legal option in the uk any more :-(

Hopefully though we can get the "free" cancer treatments and get cured :-) Then get back to in this case keeping thoes 10 employees off the dole. Its one of the few things we really do have right over here, even if it could do with some polishing and some kinda economy - management fine tuning.

If that wasn't so true it could be considered funny.

Originally Posted by Gary E

I hear that after Jan 1, 2013 there wil likely be 2 choises...
1.... you can pay a very large increase imposed by all the insur companies

2.....If that cost is paid by your employer, HE, the employer, has 2 choises, one is to cancel all insur and pay a $1500 FINE.... and tell the employees they are on their own, good luck finding insur on your own... Many small biz companies will do this because its cheaper for the employer, and less hassle....

I don't see how the date matters unless #2 is your pick.
I don't see the new rules making much of a change even if they survive the courts.

#1 is no different than it has been for decades.
#2 means you will pay a fine rather than dealing with the problem.

No doubt that health care is a big employe expense. In some cases it is possible for it to be larger than the base hourly wage cost.
IMO health care costs are one of the largest reasons for middle class wage stagnation in the US. I know they make a big impact on my decisions.

More telling is:
"If you still had a shop Gary, which way would you go? #1 or #2 and why?"
Bob

You dont understand it, and that the way the CONGRESS Crittres wrote it... it's called Obama Care..
remember the Nancy Pelosi quote ? "PASS it... then read it" or some such... anyway it's LAW on Jan 1

Me?... If I still had my shop... I'd pay the fine... it's cheaper, simple economics.... and then go out of biz
Part of the reasons I sold was the new rules, or shall I say lack of rules the govmt changed, example, no more BUY AMERICAN ACT....and less Small Biz Set Aside... This lets BIG Co... take the work, send it to Mexico, or China or any damn place they want to and bring it back ... No Thanks... I quit...

Its a sad situation, but some work beforehand could have led to a much better financial outcome. #1, the son should have owned his own home. Cut the damn apron strings.

As far as transitioning the business to the second generation, both generations have to be fully on board. The older generation has to give up control. The younger generation has to accept responsibility.

Dad should have had a buyout arrangement for Jr long ago. Even without the buyout agreement, Dad and Mom could have had their assets in trusts, with the survivor getting the income but with Jr being the recipient.

Mom would still lose her assets, but Jr would have Dad's half of the business. Mom would have trust income that would only go to the state as it is received.

If you have a business, and especially if that business has employees, you have a duty to all involved to ensure some continuity in the business. Make sure you have the "Four D's of Disaster" covered.

1)Divorce
2)Disability
3)Death
4)Disillusionment or Disinterest

Originally Posted by Gary E

You dont understand it, and that the way the CONGRESS Crittres wrote it... it's called Obama Care..
remember the Nancy Pelosi quote ? "PASS it... then read it" or some such... anyway it's LAW on Jan 1

... at which point - Jan 1 .. court-case outcome aside, it looks more and more that 'LAW' but '...of unintended consequences' will prevail.

The politass-umption was that nearly all would comply and greater flows of 'adjusted' premium-fee cash would reach the big players of the broken (alleged) 'Health Care' machine.

But if PM and other bellweathers are at all statistically significant, as I believe they are - a far larger percentage than expected will pay the fine and JF opt-out.

Even if the fines were to be: A) collected (not assured), and B) aimed by Big Government towards the pockets of 'Big Health' (perhaps even more doubtful), most of the value will have evaporated into Gummint waste before ever reaching that target. Or ANY target.

So Big Health loses the Fat premiums, gets nothing of substance in return .. and STILL has the 'prexisting conditions' and similar crosses to bear.

'Unintended Consequences'? Pretty well have to be.

No evidence yet found that the current Administration can PLAN anything.

Bill