OT: Shop Owners - Does Willingness To Learn and Succeed Go Anywhere?

First of all: Sorry for all the background info (my main question is in the last two paragraphs). Secondly, NOT trying to get a job, I just want to know if I'm crazy or not to be considering this!

For the past couple years, I've been working for a small outfit designing and prototyping new products. I take things from initial conception all the way into production – CAD, circuit board design, machining prototypes, testing, submitting RFQs and purchasing, vetting suppliers and vendors, tech. support, it's all on me. I get input from the owner of the company about usage requirements and ease of use, but actually getting the stuff designed and made is what I do.

Not trying to toot my own horn, but I'm pretty proud of my work. I'm self-taught all the way. That has some disadvantages – I'm limited in not being exposed to other's experience. But that's what college is for. I'm 21 and planning on starting up again this winter. I moved from California to Washington and had to focus on paying the bills in a new state.

A while back, we lost a couple employees to other opportunities, and I took on their responsibilities. I went from design/prototyping and light production into design/prototyping/customer service/shipping/receiving/full-time production. There was a concomitant pay raise, but I feel like I'm topped out ($14/hour). With the company as small as this, everyone's got a pretty good idea of what each other makes, and I'm not too far away from the most senior employee.

The most rewarding part of my job is designing and prototyping parts. I absolutely love it. Manufacturing is a passion – I get off work everyday and start working again on my own projects – I've got an AutoCAD seat at home, and a modest but functional shop – All manual machines. On the weekend my friends go to bars, I'm trying to hit tenths and researching endmills and lathe inserts. And playing with the dog.

My issue is that I feel like I'm out of room to grow. The owner is nearing retirement and looking into selling the outfit or even closing the doors. We're a niche industry and I can't see many potential buyers for the price he wants.

Ultimately, I want the opportunity to move up the pay scale, and learn more about manufacturing. I don't think the first one is gunna happen, and I know for a fact we're not going to be funding a VMC anytime soon. My end game is an engineering degree and hopefully successful self-employment in a manufacturing field. I feel like working in a shop would be invaluable experience.

The basis of my plan is based on this thread:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...of getting hired as an entry level machinist?

I've made a list of job shops and manufacturers in my area, and I plan on driving door to door and seeing if any of them are looking to hire someone new. That's where getting the cops called on me comes in. Job ads aren't yielding anything promising, and the general consensus in that thread seems to be calling and emailing are a dead end. I want to show up and show that I'm serious. Just not sure how that'll go over... I don't care if I start out sweeping and deburring parts, as long as there's opportunity to learn and grow.

So, to all the shop owners out there: Would you slam the door on me, or at least hear me out? My big fear is that I'm just gunna piss a bunch of people off for showing up unannounced.

Jeez. Just buy a Bridgeport and a Southbend lathe and stick them in the garage. Boom! You're a machinist...

You sound like someone I'd be interested to hire if you were in my neck of the woods. Or wanted to come to my neck of the woods.

ewlsey said:

Jeez. Just buy a Bridgeport and a Southbend lathe and stick them in the garage. Boom! You're a machinist...

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Seems too much like a smart ass worthless comment.
* And how did you go about it the "right way" and differently?

Sounds like his approach is and has been working pretty good so far.

* Yes, that's about how I started out.
And it's worked out pretty well.
There's no set requirement to "officially" become a machinist or business owner.
From his description, I'd say he's got a high percentage of "what it takes" already.

apt403:
Kid, if you're doing all that as you say, and have the interest level and drive, you
WILL go places. There are probably no less than 50 shop owners on this forum
that would be delighted to talk to someone such as yourself.
Me included.

If you're doing all that, and topping out at $14/hr... Well, it's making my head hurt. I pay my shop labor guys more than that, and frankly you should be shooting for more, if you can do what you claim. Don't sell yourself short, except perhaps for a very brief "prove it" period.

By gosh, it really seems like we all should have become plumbers or electricians, or something that gets paid better than Burger King wages.

Comatose said:

You sound like someone I'd be interested to hire if you were in my neck of the woods. Or wanted to come to my neck of the woods.

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dkmc said:

apt403:
Kid, if you're doing all that as you say, and have the interest level and drive, you
WILL go places. There are probably no less than 50 shop owners on this forum
that would be delighted to talk to someone such as yourself.
Me included.

Click to expand...

Milland said:

If you're doing all that, and topping out at $14/hr... Well, it's making my head hurt. I pay my shop labor guys more than that, and frankly you should be shooting for more, if you can do what you claim. Don't sell yourself short, except perhaps for a very brief "prove it" period.

By gosh, it really seems like we all should have become plumbers or electricians, or something that gets paid better than Burger King wages.

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Thanks for the votes of confidence - Makes me feel a lot better about my plan.

The real kicker was last week, talking to a kid that was taking care of some grunt work. His sister's a cashier at a local store, making damn near double what I am. Great for her, I'm happy to hear about people making it. OTOH, I can't imagine she's ever staring at metal compatibility charts and airborne salt levels in coastal environments at 10:30 at night to verify galvanic corrosion isn't going to be a problem on an assembly. A subject I'd be interested in reading about regardless of its importance to work, but still.

About 75% of companies in our area have some form of collage tuition reimbursement while you work for them. Work during the day, school a couple evenings a week, get a "B" or better and the class is paid for. Making fair wage PLUS them paying for school is a big deal compared to forking out $50 large of your own money or worse yet, debt, to go to school.
Those same companies are starting guys at $14/hr and the pay scale goes to $28-35 in 3 years... Add that to many thousands per year in school "bonus"!

From what I have been reading recently about wages compared to cost of living in the PNW, I can't see a reason to go. I crab about cost of living, but our general area of the Midwest is amount the lowest in the country.
Just FYI

Can you buckle down and get an engineering degree with a minor in business, while still working part time, before the owner decides to sell? If so, do it, and buy him out when you're done -- if that outfit is economically viable. You're already putting in the hours on evening/weekend.

Keep in mind too that most of college will be so much easier now that you have the practical experience you have gained -- research discipline, focusing on relevant details, etc. You may even be able to get college credit for experience. Just stay away from online-only schools -- brick and mortar still matters. You can do lots of classes online from brick and mortar schools, though. A great option for the required, big lecture classes. The more you get into your specialty, the more personal access to real professors you'll want. Both for educational, and for job reference purposes.

Once you get through that, you'll have seniority, experience, a degree, and thorough knowledge of the business. If you don't buy the company you're at now, you'll still have a great resume, a degree (which still matters in engineering) and loads of experience. Many places will do tuition reimbursement for your masters' degree an subsequent PE certs, which should make you unstoppable.

Just think of your current job as an out-of-sequence paid internship. And as that, it's a great one.

Chip

Missouri is a pretty low CoL area (one of the lowest) and $14/hr for what you do would be a kick in the nuts.

Your boss is already saying he wants to close up shop. You should set a goal to have another job by <x> days from now. 30 days from now, you should be getting your coffee from a new machine in the morning. One post in this thread and you already got two people wishing they could interview you.

apt403 said:

I've made a list of job shops and manufacturers in my area, and I plan on driving door to door and seeing if any of them are looking to hire someone new. That's where getting the cops called on me comes in. Job ads aren't yielding anything promising, and the general consensus in that thread seems to be calling and emailing are a dead end. I want to show up and show that I'm serious. Just not sure how that'll go over... I don't care if I start out sweeping and deburring parts, as long as there's opportunity to learn and grow.

So, to all the shop owners out there: Would you slam the door on me, or at least hear me out? My big fear is that I'm just gunna piss a bunch of people off for showing up unannounced.

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The fact that you show initiative should make people think about hiring you. I got a job just calling / walking in one place. Small place. Wasn't hiring. Someone with initiative isn't easy to find so even if someone isn't hiring there is a decent chance they would think of a way to use you.

Have you tried posting an "Employment wanted" thread under career opportunities here? Put your city in your location, a shop owner local to you may contact you just from this thread.

Way back when I started out, I figured that my best chances of getting interesting work was to go it on my own. I wanted to learn everything and to run everything. If you work in a big shop, the chances are you'll get stuck in a slot somewhere, and you will languish away 'being productive for somebody else'. That might be good if they turn you loose and you can design, program, machine and assemble stuff, but that might be rare.

Prototype work is often not good paying work: there can be a lot of hours spent with not too much to show for it. But sometimes it just takes dogged persistence and time to get a job done. You have to be cost conscious through it all, and even if you are having a hell of a good time, the costs have to be justified, and that might be why you've topped out at a low wage rate: not enough output per hour. So while prototyping might be 'interesting', it doesn't often pay the bills, you also need to have some good paying grunt work or production (which you might not like as much) to even things out.

Try
indeed.com
They cover all the online job search's. You plug in your Zip code, how far you are willing to travel, and job description desired, and they monitor all online posting for you.
Worked for me.
Good Luck!!

If you walked into my shop wearing a clean shirt with resume in hand, I would at least take the time to talk to you.
When somebody calls, it is easier to just say no. Plus, I give a guy credit for 1)Being resourceful enough to find me, and 2) getting off his ass and showing up in person.

why are you still there. I just hired two kids who were sandwich artists and they are doing fantastic. they stay off the phone, focus on taking direction and are willing to learn. at the end of the year they will be making about $14/hr and they had zero experience when they started with me.

did you actually talk to the owner? If people are leaving for other opportunities there is room for a raise.

Chip Chester said:

Can you buckle down and get an engineering degree with a minor in business, while still working part time, before the owner decides to sell? If so, do it, and buy him out when you're done -- if that outfit is economically viable. You're already putting in the hours on evening/weekend.

Just think of your current job as an out-of-sequence paid internship. And as that, it's a great one.

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At one point I thought taking over the business would be a good opportunity, but that day is past. I've got a pretty good grasp of the market, our competitors, and more importantly, our profitability. Without writing a novel, it'd honestly be easier and cheaper to establish a new company. There won't be much in the way of tangible assets transferred in the sale, and I believe I'd wind up in a stronger market position if I started off fresh, rather than try to carry on where we are now. It means leaving behind a lot of my work, but that's okay. I'm the one who did it in the first place. Ultimately though, I'm just not interested in this industry for a career.

As a paid internship, it is a great one!

baran3 said:

The fact that you show initiative should make people think about hiring you. I got a job just calling / walking in one place. Small place. Wasn't hiring. Someone with initiative isn't easy to find so even if someone isn't hiring there is a decent chance they would think of a way to use you.

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Not a bad perspective to have - I think the diversity of my skill set would be a benefit in that kind of situation, rather than a drawback because I don't have a single 'specialty'.

Dualkit said:

Have you tried posting an "Employment wanted" thread under career opportunities here? Put your city in your location, a shop owner local to you may contact you just from this thread.

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Not a bad plan, I'll do that.

SDConcepts said:

why are you still there. I just hired two kids who were sandwich artists and they are doing fantastic. they stay off the phone, focus on taking direction and are willing to learn. at the end of the year they will be making about $14/hr and they had zero experience when they started with me.

did you actually talk to the owner? If people are leaving for other opportunities there is room for a raise.

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That's the thing. $14/hour was the raise, after taking on the responsibilities of two other people. I was making $12/hour until a few months ago. Our employee with the most seniority makes $16 after five years.

I believe you honestly believe your assessment of your skills and dedication...

...more often then not I have people touting their skills to me during the interview, but on the floor the truth is told. I do not deflate their balloon by telling them they suck, even as a wanna be machinist...but more of a gentle, you do not fit our shops needs and I could not pay you what you require so I think best we part ways.
I say this as perhaps you need an unbiased, honest evaluation of your skills....I am not doubting your working hard...but hard work does not always produce.

If you are as good as you say...you need to move up or move on.
Staying in one place without advancement or training you are not growing...you need to get yourself into a place where your not top dog...so you can learn from them and advance. Or a place that offers schooling and training.

School is great...hands on from a master, even better. When you have learned all you can, moved up as far as you can...move on again. Become well rounded and see what you enjoy...and what pays and hopefully find the right combination so you look forward to work each day and can afford the life you want...aside from work.

That may require relocating...you didn't mention a family...if without and not serious with another half...then this would be the time as your baggage is light...I kinda wish I had done that. I can learn more from the people I hire then I can pickup in a book these days...not to say I don't read whatever I can get my hands on.

Just showing up is a whole lot better then emailing or calling. If you feel the need, call and say your coming in to drop off your resume and would hope for a brief minute to speak with owner, manager etc. Is there a good time. Keep it short and sweat if you get his ear...


Yes, I'd put you on even if I did not have an immediate opening.

That may require relocating...you didn't mention a family...if without and not serious with another half...then this would be the time as your baggage is light...I kinda wish I had done that. I can learn more from the people I hire then I can pickup in a book these days...not to say I don't read whatever I can get my hands on.


This^, sort of

While you might be learning things about manufacturing on Friday nights I'd bet your friends are learning things about women. Not to say one is better than the other but I do know several hardworking people who made themselves unavailable for a family in the window you are in, who wish they could go back.

I don't say that to dissuade you from spending all of your time trying to get a leg up but its certainly easier to succeed with a family at your side.

If you're ever going to make some big moves for a career its better to make that before you have to think about moving a family.

SIM said:

I believe you honestly believe your assessment of your skills and dedication...

...more often then not I have people touting their skills to me during the interview, but on the floor the truth is told. I do not deflate their balloon by telling them they suck, even as a wanna be machinist...but more of a gentle, you do not fit our shops needs and I could not pay you what you require so I think best we part ways.
I say this as perhaps you need an unbiased, honest evaluation of your skills....I am not doubting your working hard...but hard work does not always produce.

If you are as good as you say...you need to move up or move on.
Staying in one place without advancement or training you are not growing...you need to get yourself into a place where your not top dog...so you can learn from them and advance. Or a place that offers schooling and training.

School is great...hands on from a master, even better. When you have learned all you can, moved up as far as you can...move on again. Become well rounded and see what you enjoy...and what pays and hopefully find the right combination so you look forward to work each day and can afford the life you want...aside from work.

That may require relocating...you didn't mention a family...if without and not serious with another half...then this would be the time as your baggage is light...I kinda wish I had done that. I can learn more from the people I hire then I can pickup in a book these days...not to say I don't read whatever I can get my hands on.

Just showing up is a whole lot better then emailing or calling. If you feel the need, call and say your coming in to drop off your resume and would hope for a brief minute to speak with owner, manager etc. Is there a good time. Keep it short and sweat if you get his ear...


Yes, I'd put you on even if I did not have an immediate opening.

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Not being top dog would be a nice situation. Having the final say on things is all well and good, but it'd be a lot nicer if I was surrounded regularly with people I could get opinions from. My boss has good input when it comes to the end user, but something like surface finish and concentricity tolerances on a bearing pocket? That's a different story.

One more towards for just showing up. Thanks for the vote of confidence.

yoke said:

That may require relocating...you didn't mention a family...if without and not serious with another half...then this would be the time as your baggage is light...I kinda wish I had done that. I can learn more from the people I hire then I can pickup in a book these days...not to say I don't read whatever I can get my hands on.


This^, sort of

While you might be learning things about manufacturing on Friday nights I'd bet your friends are learning things about women. Not to say one is better than the other but I do know several hardworking people who made themselves unavailable for a family in the window you are in, who wish they could go back.

I don't say that to dissuade you from spending all of your time trying to get a leg up but its certainly easier to succeed with a family at your side.

If you're ever going to make some big moves for a career its better to make that before you have to think about moving a family.

Click to expand...

Relocating isn't out of the question, but I just got Washington residency. It'd be a pain to wait another year (out of state tuition is crazy, takes a year to get residency in most states). Might want to move closer to Seattle, though. Seems like most manufacturing is based in the northern part of the state.

As far as bars and woman and Friday nights go - I had plenty of fun in high school. Moved up to Washington because my partner and I wanted out of California. She and I were tired of the heat, and she didn't want to finish her BA out there. Graduated last fall and now it's my turn. No human family, but our parrot and dog get spoiled so much they may as well be children.

Doug said:

Where in Washington are you located? $14 will soon be under the minimum wage in the Seattle area.

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About 15 minutes outside Olympia. Unfortunately the $15 minimum wage doesn't take effect until 2017 for large companies, 2018 if their employees get medical benefits, and 2019/2021 for smaller outfits, depending on the benefit levels they offer. Assuming inflation remains more or less the same, it'll be an effective $11.80-13.50/hour in 2015 dollars.

You have two things going for you right off the bat: you know the word "concomitant". A persons vocabulary (or the lack thereof) says a lot about the mind's ability. Second: you are into it, motivated, and you have the most important skill there is: the ability to teach yourself! After some of my Misadventures in the Land of Hiring Help, I would be tickled pink if you walked into my shop.