Suggestions for expansion : Surface grinder vs Plasma cutter

Hey guys.
So I'm at the point of investing a few more K into some more machines.
I have all the tooling I need, and don't need any more endmills or lathe tools.
I have an Gas/Gasless aluminium/steel etc Mig with spool gun loads of gas and a bad ass 500 dollar helmet. Don't need anything there.
I've got a sick vice, plenty of CNC bits.
I have a metal bandsaw and a good drill press and bench grinder...
I think I'm very lucky and have pretty much most of what I need.

But...
I would hope that either a surface grinder or plasma cutter would generate good business, for heads/parts or even just make simple things like paralells i can sell on ebay or other bits and pieces. (maybe to you lot at too good a price to refuse.) The plasma cutter I see people making signs, crappy little trinkets, some engine parts and manifold bits, but how the hell do you know what to make? How often would someone really need a new manifold plate for a car??? Maybe once every 3 million km's???

I was going to spend the money on a VMC, maybe a mini haas or something second hand, but not yet as my machine does an ok job at this point. I would like the shop to make enough income to warrant that purchase but it just doesn't at the moment.
I think a plasma cutter or grinder might be a better shop tool initially to generate more rolling income.

Right now the new lathe doesn't get much work and there isn't much happening in the motorbike world, I want to expand, but I don't know where to.
Any ideas which machine might be more useful around the shop?
What machine brings in the most rolling income for you? I saw a guy got a 15k job on a tormach on here... what the hell lol. I don't get anything like that!
The only other thing I'd consider is a TIG. Which I used to have. But can't say it ever got me that much work either.
Thanks.
SJ.

How much floor space do you really have? It doesn't look like you have a lot from the video you posted. Find a machine that will earn it's keep in a minimal foot print.

FWIW, Before I went off half cocked and bought a plasma cutter I would make damn sure I had a compressor that could keep it and a good sized blast cabinet running. Having enough air for us to run the blast cabinet, the carbon arch and a plasma really puts a strain on a mid sized presser.

Big stumbling block and not a very glamorous purchase. But it is something that needs to be bought rated for 200% more work than you have for it at the moment. even then, you will out grow it in short order.

Regards,
Alonzo

You should be asking yourself: "what work have I turned down in the past 6-12 months due to lack of capacity?"

Sounds tho like you want to spend some money on a new toy and call it a business expense. So just do that, and start keeping notes on the work that you turn down.

I find myself turning down work now for trinket sized stuff. I have had some perculiar requests and they say, its only 100x100, they don't get all the CAD/CAM/Machine time when I quote them a reasonable price. (I'm sure you all get this.)
I would like to increase my precision, capabilities to hit small tolerance. Particularly in the car/bike market.
I do however see a quick turn around of parts that don't need to be all that accurate with the plasma.

I would like to chase some more work now, but bigger paying jobs, things I can say "That will be 1 grand" and not have people expect it was 50 dollars. The grinder will be much small footprint, but how long till it makes back its money is the question. I try not to turn down any work at the moment, can't think of any recent examples...

Is your shop inside of your house ?
Hard to tell from video,don't mean to offend.
Nice air compressor yes

Our surface grinders sit most of the time. If we had a plasma cutter it would definitely see more work than the surface grinders and we would get more work from customers. Surface grinders require a bunch of fixturing if u want to do anything more than make a flat surface and those fixtures are expensive. But our problem is space... What else would you make than parallels? You really think you will make money on parallels....

No offence at all JR thanks for your input.
I'm a huge fan of NYCCNC, he started in his basement, single garage, and now look at him. Awesome stuff.

A compressor if I need to get a standalone one I will I suppose.
My workshop is the the entire downstairs of the house, including a seperated double garage and multiple rooms.

One room housing the CNC with a duct/vent extractor.
A spare room 4X5meters i'm reserving.
It has a sperated double garage size to keep swarf/grinding/anodizing on one side of the shop and works really well. Not sure the exact total square meterage but it certainly quite big.
My work table is probably twice the size it needs to be, could happily take a 2x2 or 4x4 plasma cut table in here.

Anyway, it was just an example Nodeco, I'm always trying to think of small things to make on the down time to bring in coin. I was having a good time with footpegs till recently and will probably go back to them. I'm sure theres lots of things I can grind. But I guess its just one of those things, i'm looking to grow Make things on machine downtime, so there is as little as possible.

Anyway I would like to do some more small engine work on carts/bikes/boats etc thought a surface grinder may come in super handy. But I think many of you are suggesting a plasma cutter.

What would a surface grinder do for the engine work?

I see what you are doing Nodeco and thank you. My CNC can't run a big face mill, so i thought the grinder would do most of the finishing work. Thinking retrospectively there are other cheaper ways after using my mill to flatten a surface. (glass/sandpaper)
I considered doing heads with the surface grinder, making some tooling etc. Some people can't live without them, but I don't think after your questions that I'd use it all that much.
I could make a tonne of valve shims but think that would get boring and tedious after a while
Your questions make me think, commercial i'll probably get 10x the work on a plasma cutter. However the surface grinder might be handy in a blue moon (and would charge accordingly) I think the plasma would generate far more income. Is this what your trying to convey? I hope i'm doing ok here

Lol... Yes. I mean no disrespect. You may want to add maybe a Bridgeport to the list of possibilities... Modifying engines and such doesn't require a vmc. It would be a good inexpensive step between router and vmc. That way you have the capacity for engine work just not the automated aspect.

I genuinely meant thank you. Sometimes asking the question with another perspective makes you look at things from another angle, question your own ideas and processes . I actually appreciate it

If your into making trinkets for motorcycles like custom foot pegs, breather cover, instrument cluster covers and so on then a small VMC would be something to look at
over a plasma.

I have no idea how your market is for trinket stuff there but here it would be hell to compete with ebay for whatsits kind of stuff, however custom parts for a Harley may have better results.

You didn't say if your mill is a CNC retrofit or not, a CNC mill of some flavor can make all kinds of cool trinkets for custom motorcycle/hot rod parts.
Cant machine a Chevy bow tie into a breather cover for some ones small block with a grinder or plasma.

Its all in your hands to what direction you wanna grow your shop.

Now this is just my soul opinion so take it at face value..

If you would like this shop to be your 9-5 job I would shy away from consumer goods trinket kind of stuff unless you can find a niche market.
People are spoiled to ebay and the prices things made over seas cost which can make it very hard to compete with and make more than $30 a day.
May not be the case for your country..I dunno.

Another thing is the average Joe who walks in wanting a fancy logo machined into his doodad or something cut out on your plasma is gonna think it should take no more than 15
minutes and shit a brick when you hit him for X amount of time at a decent shop rate...thank Ebay again.

If I were there I would be doing my best to get my foot into some sort of industry that has a lot of consumables or breaks a lot of shit, then you only have to compete against local shops
because the customer either cant get a part off the shelf or wait 4 months for it to arrive from overseas.
These customers have much deeper pockets to reach into than Joe of the street does.

Good luck which ever way you go and I hope what ever machine you get becomes booked up and you need another!

shamanj said:

I'm a huge fan of NYCCNC, he started in his basement, single garage, and now look at him. Awesome stuff.

Click to expand...

He actually started in an apartment in NY city correct?

I wonder about that guy.....he seems to spend a LOT of money, but does he do
much real work? I wouldn't base my dreams and aspirations on his supposed "sucess".
He sure does buy lots of new toys for a guy his age, wife and kid to boot.
One time he was doing a vid about making some sort of pistol target, and it was
apparent he wasn't going to make a profit on the job, but seemed lackadaisical about
the problem......like he didn't need to make a profit.

Maybe his wife's a Brain Surgeon?
Maybe he won the lottery?

Now he's moved to his grandparents/parents? farmstead, and admitted he gets the
shop space at -very low- rent.....most likely free?
His vids seem to be more about the 'cool new toys' than someone that's gotta scratch to make this months bills...AKA TYPICAL new job shop owner.....

Just saying...

shamanj said:

I see what you are doing Nodeco and thank you. My CNC can't run a big face mill, so i thought the grinder would do most of the finishing work. Thinking retrospectively there are other cheaper ways after using my mill to flatten a surface. (glass/sandpaper)
I considered doing heads with the surface grinder, making some tooling etc. Some people can't live without them, but I don't think after your questions that I'd use it all that much.

Click to expand...

Think again. A SG is good for stuff from say 0.001" to 0.0001" or better tolerances. For hogging material down, no way. Get a decent sized manual mill, it's more than accurate enough for toy cylinder heads on motorbikes etc.

I have a SG, hardly gets used. The mills get used a lot, as does the welding gear. Plasma cutter gets a pretty fair workout as well.

If you're getting a plasma cutter, 100A is about the minimum I'd be happy with. Unfortunately my current one is 50A and it can't really do clean cuts on 12mm 316. But it is a cheap eBay Chinese job.

PDW

PDW is it a manual or cnc plasma cutter?
I'm really looking at the TIG. I can afford it and have plenty of experience with them.
I think that and a plasma cutter (manual) might be ideal, I can cut stencils using my cnc. (Saves buying a CNC plasma.)

I have found some cheap bridgeports interstate and some decent size/weight hafco mills locally. I think my wife is going to kick my ass soon.
IronRob thanks man. Appreciate the input.
I have paid off my car, and have no debts... maybe I should get into debt with VMC Pending wife approval.

As a general rule, and there are myriad exceptions to this rule, I\d think that the torch would see more work, and provide a quicker ROI than the surface grinder. There are just more jobs floating around out there that the torch can do, than there are jobs that require the precision of the surface grinder. It all depends on your local situation and your customer base, but from the sounds of your post, your more likely to be involved in making bike parts than surface grinding on a wholesale basis. Lot's more doodads on a bike that could be created with a robo-torch than there are that require a surface grinder. Ther are parts that only a surface grinder can accomplish, but they tend to be very specialized. If your normal customers are asking for those parts, then maybe the grinder. But if your looking at just generally adding a dose of capacity, I'd go with the torch. It will require sufficient peripheral equipment(air compressor, possibly a tumbler) to really capitalize on, but comparing all that to a good surface grinder, pricewisem I think the torch setup still comes out ahead. Your mileage may vary. Tax, title and license not included. Do not attempt within a solar eclipse.

Having just completed my yearly taxes/accounting wrap up, I would suggest that you take the money and buy a burrito roach coach. If you want to make money.

If you want to make THINGS, save up and get a Samson cnc plasma table. Surface grinders gather dust.
have fun
i_r_

Burning out parts and then slapping 'em down on a Blanchard grinder is a very common occurence.

Surface grinder not so much.

If you wanted to add to your machining capability, then the grinder makes sense.

If you want something that will make money, then buy the CNC plasma cutter. Especially since you have the welding capability to back it up. I would actually skip the plasma cutter and go straight to a CNC laser cutter. Makes a much nicer part.

I'm not real familiar with the market you produce for. Typically, machine purchases are made for the following reasons:
1. Replace one technology with another, i.e. to get the same parts made cheaper.
2. To expand capacity (you're backing up in areas of your shop).
3. To expand capability (offer services/products you didn't have before, or maybe in larger work envelope).
4. To replace "worn out" technology (stuff keeps breaking down).

In almost every circumstance, there's a primary reason and a few secondary as well. Sounds to me like you're in #3; you want to offer things you couldn't before. I would think about the entire process (i.e. maybe these parts get flame cut and then ground flat). Maybe it makes sense to farm out the flame work and run the grinder in house. Find out which services are in your area that you could hire out and see which one makes more economic sense. I'd have to have a LOT of extra room before I committed to a CNC plasma cutter and the associated floor space (machine
AND raw material), fume collection, consumables, sheet/plate handling, etc.). Seems to me a grinder would be a lot less floor space and consumables. But that's just looking at one aspect of it. I'm not necessarily trying to answer your question but get you to consider more factors before making a decision.

Good luck, I love entrepreneurs who dream big and then go do it!
The Dude