7 inch Flather lathe - Practical Machinist - Largest Manufacturing Technology Forum on the Web

Dennis Turk · #1 11-03-2009, 01:16 PM

Hi guys

I have had this lathe for some years now but had never assembled it. I just put the lathe together as I received it and took some pictures of it. I would like you guys to take a look and see if any of you have any info on this small Flather.

The lathe like its big brothers is a massive built little lathe with full one inch wide back gears that are 12 pitch. The lathe as a lot of interesting features not normally seen on a small lathe. I know Flather ended production I think in 1927 and if they used a sequential set of serial numbers like South Bend did then the serial number on this lathe would put it built in about 1907.

There are a number of things that are just like a Dalton lathe. The change gears are exactly the same as Dalton's and carry the same casting numbers. Also Dalton had a patent thread less nut to hold the end gears on and this Flather has a version of that thread less nut. The thread chart on the end door is exactly the same as a Dalton only the company name and address were different. The taper is mounted on a large T slot on the back side of the bed just like Dalton did. The taper is a round bar not rectangular. The original follower block and cross slide extension were lost and replaced with shop made items.

The lathe has a disengaging threading lead screw also. The tail stock has a cam lock handle for locking the tail stock to the bed. The odd spindle nose is a 1 3/8 - 12 were as the Dalton used a 1 1/4 - 12

One most interesting features is the way Father got around not having a telescopic lead screw for the cross slide. What they did was make the cross slide lead screw bushing a sliding member in the saddle. There is a tab that locks it for normal use but if the taper is being used you lower the tab lock and the complete cross side bushing and all side in and out of the saddle with the motion of the taper.

Take a look guys and let me know if anyone has any info on this little gem.

For some reason I cant post any photos as I am getting a bad link. I will put them up on my Flicker photo site at.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/45888076@N00/?saved=1

Dennis Turk

Billygoat · #2 11-03-2009, 01:40 PM

Flather made a quality machine. Very heavy duty. Here is what I have about the Flather & Co,

FLATHER & COMPANY LATHES
Joseph Flather, patriarch of the 19th-century Nashua, NH family that founded Flather & Company, was an immigrant from England who came to this country after the American Civil War. He worked as a machinist initially for Silver & Gay of North Chelmsford, MA who were a dying first generation machine tool builder. He quickly moved to Gage, Warner & Whitney, another first generation tool builder of Nashua, NH.
After a few years with GW&W, Flather decided to strike out on his own and started a shop making all types of machine products with at least one other partner. The scope of their production was probably too wide as the firm languished and Flather eventually reorganized under his own name alone to make machine tools only and ultimately lathes specifically. This was the eventual source of Flather's success.
Flather & Company lathes were begun in Nashua, NH about 1875 and continued through the late 1920's. Joseph Flather died in 1907 with the business being continued on for a few more years by his sons. The depression killed the Flather Company although they did languish on a bit during the 1920's under the less disciplined guidance of the sons.
Joseph Flather is credited with inventing a particular type of lathe that rapidly became popular for its user-friendly design. The Flather lathe was one of the first to incorporate a hole through the head stock spindle and Flather lathes were noted for a larger hole than most of their competition. Flather originated the compound rest which was not a feature of lathes until that time and also Flather was one of the first adopters of quick change gears. His initial planetary change gear design was later set aside for the more conventional "South Bend" type of quick change gearbox.
Flather lathes tend to be a bit larger and more beefy than their 19th century competitors, a selling point at the time and an advantage today with the use of modern carbide tooling which tends to require additional stiffness and horsepower to drive it. Thus Flather has survived and is still useful even to the present day - although it can be a trifle slow for production work having been designed originally for carbon steel tooling, usually not a problem for the small shop or homeowner.
Flather lathes had babbitt bearings of generous size in the head stock and the South Bend style quick change gears. The serial number is stamped on the center of the cross slide and on other parts generally. Peak production years for Flather & Company were from about 1900 to about 1913. Flather Lathes went all over the world during that period and were known internationally as “The Flather Lathe”. Flather numbered his lathes in "sizes" rather than by total production.

A few pics of my 20" Flather from about 1973, (me at 16). Inherited it from my dad. It still works fine today.

Dennis Turk · #3 11-03-2009, 02:12 PM

Last year I got to see Jim Carlson's dads 13 inch Flather. Jim is in Grand Island NY just out of Buffalo. I will have to say I was really impressed with the quality of the lathe but also the width of the bed in comparison to the center hight of the spindle. The infamous triangle that we used to call this. The triangle was a gage at saying how heavy duty a lathe was. A triangle of equal sides meaning bed width to center hight was considered a good lathe. With the bed wider than the center hight it was considered a very heavy duty lathe. less was bad.

Jim's 13 inch had massive back gears and spindle bearings with a large four bolt bearing cap. The very early 1920 and maybe 21 South Bend quick change boxes actually had the Flather patent number on them. If you ever see a Flather quick change lathe and how they did the end gears to drive the change box the design is really something. Were as SB's version left some thing to be wondered about. I have never known when Flather patent the gear box but give it took 17 years for a patent to run out I would have to say that SB paid Flather royalties for a couple of years. Anyone have any info on that?

Turk

northernsinger · #4 11-03-2009, 03:26 PM

Thanks you both, nice looking little lathe.

In my experience, over the last 30 plus years in western Vermont, when it comes to old lathes, in garages, old shops etc, around here, a Flather has very commonly been the lathe. Certainly less so now than prior.

A New Hampshire friend has a Flather shaper, by the way, about a 12 inch machine.

I'm sure there will be more written about Flather.

Robert Lang · #5 11-03-2009, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dennis Turk

I have never known when Flather patent the gear box but give it took 17 years for a patent to run out I would have to say that SB paid Flather royalties for a couple of years. Anyone have any info on that?

Patent for the Flather gear box.

http://www.google.com/patents?id=tqs...810634&f=false

Rob

Dennis Turk · #6 11-03-2009, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Lang

Patent for the Flather gear box.

http://www.google.com/patents?id=tqs...810634&f=false

Rob

1906 patent date so that is why we see the Flather patent on the SB gear boxes for the first part of the 20's. 17 years would put the patent still active up till 1923.

Turk

Joe in NH · #7 11-03-2009, 05:02 PM

Flather earlier supposedly had a quick change gearbox of "planetary" action. The story goes that Henry Ford got the idea for a planetary transmission for his early cars (predating the Model T) from taking apart and cleaning this gearbox.

No. 715 where are you? Now somewhere down near Nashua, NH according to my sources.

Joe in NH

L Vanice · #8 11-03-2009, 07:01 PM

Note the 1906 patent was issued to Herbert L Flather, not Joseph. So I spent some time on Ancestry.com looking at the 1900 US census.

The 1900 US Census for Nashua, NH, Arlington St.:
Joseph Flather, Machinist, born April, 1837 in England came to US in 1856, not naturalized. Owns house 20 Arlington St., no mortgage. Married for 30 years to
Aristine Flather, wife, born February, 1841 in NH, 4 living children.
Living with three single daughters
Elizabeth Flather, daughter, born January, 1863 in NJ [Born before Joseph's marriage to Aristine, probably to a first wife of Joseph before he moved to NH.]
Emma Flather, daughter, born May, 1872 in NH
Ruth Flather, daughter, born July, 1883 in NH

Herbert L Flather was the child of Joseph and Aristine in spite of someone (his wife?) telling the census taker that Herbert's father was born in NH. Verified by 1880 census.

Herbert L Flather, Mechanic, born January, 1874 in NH. Both parents born in NH [sic]. Owns house 63 Arlington St., no mortgage. Married for 8 months to
Mary Flather born August, 1879 in NH

20 and 63 Arlington St. are five blocks apart.

Larry

Robert Lang · #9 11-03-2009, 07:49 PM

Joseph Flather had three brothers in business with him. Edward W., William J. and Mark Jr.

Rob

L Vanice · #10 11-04-2009, 09:00 AM

More Flathers in Nashua in 1900:

William J Flather, Manufacturer, Machines, born December, 1841 in England, came to US 1857, not naturalized. Owns house 264 Main St. Married 42 years to
Jennie Flather, born April, 1841 in NY, 3 living children, living with
Beatrice Flather, born September, 1882 in NH

Mark Flather, Manufacturer Machine Tools, born September, 1851 in England, came to US in 1857, not naturalized. Owns house on Eastman St., has mortgage, Married 25 years to
Addie Flather, born November, 1854 in NH, 2 living children, living with
Florence Flather, born October, 1880 in NH

Edward Flather cannot be found by Ancestry.com.

Then we have the male cousins, sons of the English Flather brothers.

Ernest Flather, [son of William] Machine Manufacturer, born July, 1871 in NH, Mother born in NY, owns house 8 Berkley St., no mortgage married 5 years to
Gertrude A Flather, born February, 1873 in NH, 2 living children

Oscar Flather, [son of Mark] Machine Manufacturer, born December, !875 in NH, mother born in NH, rents house 31 Berkeley St., married 0 years to
Gertrude P Flather, born May, 1876 in PA no children

The 1880 census showed other cousins, but they were not living in Nashua in 1900.

Larry

Joe in NH · #11 11-04-2009, 11:06 AM

Ed Battison allowed that a Flather Lathe was at the APM and was on permanent loan from one of Joseph Flather's Grandchildren who was connected with the financial community and had only a cursory interest in it's preservation.

Joe

Dennis Turk · #12 11-04-2009, 06:18 PM

Its interesting that there is so much history about the Flathers in the NH area. The little 7 inch I have actually came from the North of Main and had been in this family for many years though not used. The dried oil and lubricants on the machine indicated to me that the lathe had not been used in a very long time. I have sent pictures to Tony Griffith and he is working on an artical about this little lathe. I got an email from him tonight with a first draft of the artical and also asked for more information and detailed pictures of the lathe. He also at the end of the artical is asking if anyone ells has one or seen one of these very small but wonderfully built machines.

Turk

jlegge · #13 11-05-2009, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dennis Turk

1906 patent date so that is why we see the Flather patent on the SB gear boxes for the first part of the 20's. 17 years would put the patent still active up till 1923.

Turk

This patent date also shows up on early Monarch lathes. The story goes that Monarch developed a quick change gearbox in 1912 that infringed on the Flather patent. On learning this Flather hopped the first train to Ohio to confront Monarch. On arrival he was so impressed with the improvements of the Monarch designed that he worked out a very reasonable license fee which allowed them to put the Flather patent number on all the lathes equipped with the quick change gear box.

John

northernsinger · #14 11-05-2009, 01:53 PM

All good stories, thanks.

northernsinger · #15 11-05-2009, 01:57 PM

By the way, the little Flather, whether it is 1907 or later (though suspected because of serial number to be 1907 the maker's mark sure seems later to me), is very attractive and reminds me of the discussion or two we've had here about a little Lebond, that also appeared very nice.

I recall being quite surprised to see a tiny little Fay & Scott wood turning lathe in the Maine State Museum, had no idea these makers made such small items. I would guess that the reason they surprise me is that so few were made and bought.

Dennis Turk · #16 11-05-2009, 04:58 PM

The reason I said 1907 was there is some history on the Internet a couple of years ago were this fellow showing his Flather lathe and shaper gave the serial numbers and also the date of mfg that was on the makers tag. I was only guessing that Flather may have used a set of sequential serial numbers like SB did from Jan.1 1910 to the end of 1946.

With all the experience I have gained with the history of the Dalton company and there machines it would seem that this little Flather would have been built in the late teens or early 20's given the unique features that are present on the lathe. If you go over to Tony Griffiths site Tony is having a field day with trying to analyze this little Flather. I have sent Tony a number of pictures and some specifications off the lathe and he has taken it from there. Again a lot of it is conjecture but Tony works from a fairly good back ground in small machines and there history.

In 1998 I got the first of my Dalton lathes I had never heard of the brand and it took me five years to find a second one. Today we count over 120 of them world wide and we have found examples of ever model old Hubert made.

Turk

tonylathes · #17 11-06-2009, 04:56 AM

http://www.lathes.co.uk/flather

L Vanice · #18 11-06-2009, 08:09 AM

This took a while to compile, but there was so much good info I found it difficult to stop. I did draw the line at compiling street addresses for the various Flather factories and homes, which are in many Nashua city directories.

There are a number of patents issued to other members of the Flather family who worked in other New England cities. Lots of mechanical smarts in that family, brought to the US in 1857 by the elder Mark Flather, a machinist who was born in England in 1806.

Enjoy.

Larry

PS: The posts are limited to 15,000 characters each, so I had to split this up.

L Vanice · #19 11-06-2009, 08:10 AM

Patents issued to the Flather family of Nashua, NH

Joseph Flather (1837-1907) partner and president in Flather & Co.; brother of Mark Flather [Jr.]
8 patents
Herbert L. Flather (1874-1933), son of Joseph Flather
9 patents
Joseph H. Flather, heir of Herbert L. Flather
1 patent
Mark Flather [Jr.] (1851-1926) partner in Flather & Co. and founded Mark Flather Planer Co. in 1884; brother of Joseph Flather
11 patents
Ernest J. Flather (1871-), son of William J. Flather, another brother of Joseph Flather and Mark Flather [Jr.]
5 patents

Patents in chronological order

L Vanice · #20 11-06-2009, 08:11 AM