Machinery export gurus - How to provide a "CE Certificate" ?

[Milacron]

Machine is 1992 Agie wire EDM, made in Switzerland..... exporting from USA to India. Supposedly need CE certificate and Certificate of Origin.

[GeneT]

I've not exported machine tools, but I've done other CE equipment. If it's not already certified, it's not going to be worth it for a single unit.

CE can be either self-certified or 3rd party certified. If the machine isn't already CE marked, you're looking at some potentially big bucks. A basic (safety) inspection from TUV America http://tuvamerica.com/newhome.cfm will cost around $5000. You need EMC cert that could easily run to $30,000 (more if there are compliance issues). In a self-cert, you then sign a particular form stating that the machine meets CE requirements of blah, blah, blah. Third-party cert means that you don't want the liability for CE compliance so you pay some pretty substantial dollars to have a 3rd party sign the compliance doc.

You might contact Agie and see if you can obtain a cert doc from them. (The inspections only need to be done for a single machine, then all like machines are covered)

Probably not what you wanted to hear...

GsT

[small.planes]

CE marking only applies to stuff placed on open market, so if its a single private sale then its arguable that you dont need a CE certificate.
However 1992 machine made in europe its likely that either the manufacturer already CE marked it, or its exempt. a copy of the cert should be obtainable from the manufacturer.

Dave

[Dan from Oakland]

Look on the data/serial # plate on the machine- if it has any certifications, they will have the certifying agency logo- CE, VDE,UL on the plate. No manufacturer would go to the expense of regulatory testing without including the information on the plate.
If one of the logos are there, you should be able to contact the manufacturer for a Declaration of Conformity for the machine.

small. planes- if he is exporting it, the customs folks in the destination country may require it so he does not kill the poor innocent citizens of their country with "dangerous machines".
Dan

[peterve]

If Agie cannot provide the CE marking it might be a good idea to have the marking done in India You could ask your customer to get a quote from a agencie overthere
Probbably more costeffective and because it seems to be law overthere more knowledge available for the matter

Certificate of origin we can get at our chambre of commerce over here
You need to provide some prove it is from Switzerland (some pics)and a statement from your own
Or you can get one from Agie in your name and then get one on your customers name at ever which office that does in the US

Just some
"wisdom beyond the normal person"

Peter from Holland

[cash]

you can find CE tags on the internet.

this is all you need to export to a country that requires this.

search and you will find.

In my opinion-every machine we have bought from europe that has had a CE tag on it has had many US electrical violations.

US standards are by far superior.

If you want to go thru the certification process be ready to have about $30K handy.

[Peter S]

Somewhere in Europe, c.1996, installing new machinery.

Two men with clip boards arrive and ask to see the 'CE' markings.

A visit made to nearest engraver.

Two men with clip boards return later in the week, sight markings, tick boxes, everyone happy...

Processes improved since then.

[Milacron]

Originally Posted by cash

you can find CE tags on the internet.


If you want to go thru the certification process be ready to have about $30K handy.

Thanks. I'm not spending 3 cents on this...buyers problem...just trying to help him out.

[Mark Rand]

Originally Posted by cash

In my opinion-every machine we have bought from europe that has had a CE tag on it has had many US electrical violations.

US standards are by far superior.

Don't want to get into an OT pissing contest, but I refused to connect some racks of computers from a large Blue manufacturer because they were electrically unsafe. When told that identical kit had been installed all over the UK, I responded that the installers had broken the law on each and every installation. When IT management challenged this, we referred the matter to the senior site electrical engineer. He demanded the racks not be installed until they were re-wired.

Took a lot of work to make the racks safe

[cash]

just saying how I see it.

I guess in my opinion it is just toughfor people to import into countries that require the CE certification.

We were just discussing this yesterday-We just got a brand new Makino wire EDM machine. Guess what-right on the main disconnect there is a CE tag, guess what is even better-no place to put you lock out on the disconnect if you were to have to do work to it.

Next week the application guy will be in and we will be asking him about this.

Every USA made machine I have has a place to put your lock out on the main disconnect.

[machtool]

Don

Originally Posted by Milacron

Supposedly need CE certificate and Certificate of Origin.

I’m surprised that they require CE certification. Or the European “(Conformities European)” version of it, as we are thinking. I don’t think that applies to imports to India, only to Europe.

I went though this last year with an associate of mine that makes Laser cutters. He had some trade –ins, that were refurbished. They were supposed to go to India. I was going to do the installs.

What they in India needed was a CE – “Chartered Engineers” Certificate. It’s a requirement of the Indian foreign trade and customs department, for imports of second hand machines. Part of that is to do with usable life left in the machine (80%).

I’d suspect that is to do with advancing their manufacturing depth, by not importing every clapped out piece of gear from around the globe.

None of the Certifying Engineers here we know, could do that Indian CE. These machines had European CE certs done in 2002 for export to Europe. But that didn’t count for India. The sale fell over, all too much trouble. No one here would certify that a 4 – 5 year old machine, even after a touch up, would have 80% life left, even if we could do the certifying. Commercial life on those machines is probably about 10 years. So I never got to go.

I goggled you up a reference. Worth the read if you have a minute.

http://www.ravienergie.com/chartered-engineer-certification.php

I’d note that they same company of engineers do European CE certifications for Indian companies wanting to export to Europe. But the Chartered Engineers CE cert, only relates to imports to India.

Regards Phil.

[JST]

I did observe the fact that you are not sending to europe.

However, as a point of information, it is probably way too much trouble to actually get a CE mark investigation on a sale to europe...... And they don't want that thing back anyway. I have been involved one way or another in getting CE mark for at least 150 products, electrical safety, EMI compliance, etc. Analog products, digital products, high powered Class-D amplifiers (3.5 HP of audio). I'd prefer not to do it for one piece that has been through "Plant maintenance".

Haven't a genuine clue about the India 80% life deal, but do have some ideas to suggest. My initial take is that any company that got rid of a machine with 80% life left probably went broke in under 2 years, and "got rid of it" at the auction. Otherwise it would be 80% used up when disposed of.

However, I suppose that one could make an objective judgment by for instance assessing the amount of wear vs some "limit" chosen as representing 100% worn out.

Ways, lead screws, etc could be evaluated relatively quickly by measurements, and compared to unworn areas. Then you get to the point of what is a "normal maintenance part" vs a fundamental part of the machine. I would clearly judge a solid cast-in way as a fundamental part, and wear would represent life used up.

But a replaceable way, or a lead screw, might be classed as maintenance, and not assessed, or weighted at 50%, or some such thing. The whole deal is a matter of "engineering judgment", and that often means that if you have a consistent and objective set of reasons or criteria, and violate no physical laws, nor safety codes, it is acceptable so long as those reasons or criteria are stated.

You will need to get a 'chartered engineer" (same as a PE here) to be on-board with that plan.

[Milacron]

Originally Posted by machtool

.

What they in India needed was a CE – “Chartered Engineers” Certificate. It’s a requirement of the Indian foreign trade and customs department, for imports of second hand machines. Part of that is to do with usable life left in the machine (80%).

Wow...you could be right. But what he's going to get is the Conformities European version and he if needs the other version, tough luck, his own stupid fault as he knows darn well this machine doesn't have "80 percent life left".

If one Googles "CE Certificate" one only sees the Conformities European version mentioned...at least for 2 pages anyway...didn't look any deeper than that.

[boslab]

Originally Posted by cash

you can find CE tags on the internet.

this is all you need to export to a country that requires this.

search and you will find.

In my opinion-every machine we have bought from europe that has had a CE tag on it has had many US electrical violations.

US standards are by far superior.

If you want to go thru the certification process be ready to have about $30K handy.

I'm reasonably expirienced and certified to European standards, you know ISO din etc,i'd be interested to know why you think European standards lag behind the US, and this isnt a dig or wanting to argue, I'm also a member of British Standards so any realistic failures you can identify i will be more than happy to pass to the relavant comitee, i think safety is important and improving it is benificial to all, if it stops injury i'm all for it
mark
http://www.bsigroup.com/en/ProductSe...rking-Process/
if theres anything on the site that require login give me an email and i'll copy it across for you

[JST]

The biggest issue with EC standards is the multiplicity of nuanced categories for equipment in application.

Where NEMA for instance, simply has a contactor rated for 7.5 HP at 480VAC, In the IEC/EN system, there are, by my own count, at least 23 slightly different categories for an AC contactor, depending on various details of the loading, with each rating class (AC3, AC6, etc, etc) very specific as to the connected equipment, and even the duty cycle.

It is, no doubt, quite efficient to figure out the optimum and minimum sized contactor which will work in each specific case. But it makes a hassle for specifiers, and a nightmare for equipment upgrades, as the effects of any change must be checked back to see if the class has changed.

While that must be done for NEMA items as well, it is much simpler. Any NEMA contactor is rated for operation of the specified HP motor, under any condition. Loads with similar requirements are fairly easily identified and a suitable HP rated contactor selected.

having for instance, 23 classes of AC loading seems excessive, even to promote maximum efficiency of material usage.

The UL/NEMA/NEC approach is to treat the installation as capital equipment, to be made right, installed right, and thereafter used. Failures should be rare, and should be limited to the failed part if they occur, they should occur without excess damage.

Quite ancient electrical equipment still performs safely in the US. But application of the nuanced IEC categories includes assessing the needed lifetime, and choosing a category and rating based in part upon the desired life. One cannot expect to have long life unless that was made a priority for the specifying specialist.

The IEC ratings treat the electrical equipment as expendable and somewhat short-term, and a downstream failure is quite likely to overstress other upstream equipment such as contactors which may also need replacement.

An installation according to IEC may fail to pass US inspections, due to the wire sizes, wire types, ratings of electrical parts, etc. It is not at all unusual to find IEC components which have failed in conditions of overload which would not be of concern with UL/NEMA/NEC compliant components.

It's a philosophical difference, a choice of making tough equipment which can be specified and installed by normally trained personnel, vs much lighter duty equipment, for which applications may often need to be calculated by specialists.

[boslab]

it has been passed to the electrical standards sub comitee who by thier great title probably have nothing better to do than inventing standards at the rate of one an hour.
we will see what they have to suggest to clear up the obveous disparrity with NEMA
regards
mark

[Phil Burman]

Of course deciding whether a machine still has 80% usable life left is dependent on where you set the bar for “no longer usable”. I would suspect than this definition is very much open to argument by the importer.

Phil

Originally Posted by machtool

What they in India needed was a CE – “Chartered Engineers” Certificate. It’s a requirement of the Indian foreign trade and customs department, for imports of second hand machines. Part of that is to do with usable life left in the machine (80%).