Manpower says Engineers & Machinists hardest positions to fill

[adammil1]

Maybe this should serve as a bit of hope for some of those out there. http://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/s...1/daily32.html

Engineering jobs have been the most difficult positions for employers to fill in this country in 2008, according to a survey released this week by Manpower Inc.
They're followed by: machinists/machine operators; skilled trades; technicians; sales representatives; accounting/finance staff; mechanics; laborers; IT staff; and production operators, according to the employment services company.
"From our research, it is clear that across the country employers are experiencing a mismatch between the talent their businesses need and the skills and abilities potential employees possess," says Jonas Prising, president of Manpower North America, in a news release.
Engineers weren't even on the top 10 hard-to-fill list in 2007, but were No. 2 in 2006, the first year of the sampling.
Manpower surveyed 2,000 American employers this year to come up with the findings.
Why do the survey?
"I guess it's two-fold: one is an opportunity to share information with the people we do business with, let them know some of the trends we're seeing," says Manpower spokesman Paul Holley. The aim also is to "communicate with people who are out there in the marketplace looking for work, to let them know what employers are seeking."

Not a long story but maybe it means some job openings out there for a lot of us. I myself just accepted a full time field engineering position starting in June, I turned down 5others too. They are hiring like crazy out there in the energy fields in particular. As far as I'm concerned it seems if the dollar keeps dropping the job market for those of us who either design or make something keeps growing.

Adam

[Comatose]

Manpower is a temp service. Who the HELL hires engineers through a temp service? Seriously.

I'm not going to go on one of my temp service rants, so suffice to say if I wanted to regard my employees as disposable, treat them like crap, offer them no benefits, skim 40% of their pay, then discard them, I could do it all by myself without "help."

[jim rozen]

I think addammill's point was, given that this is a topic
which has been discussed ad infinitum here, and further
that the conclusion is always that engineers and machinists
are very smart people, and they can tell when the pay
for skills and performances is mis-matched, and further
that the math, science, and engineering education situation
in the US is currenty abysmal, that the net conclusion
is:

It is time for the posters here on the board to engage
in, what's the german term, "shadenfreud."

Or, if they want engineers and machinists, time to
compensate appropriately. Pony up guys.

Jim

[metal_twister]

Originally Posted by Comatose

Manpower is a temp service. Who the HELL hires engineers through a temp service? Seriously.

I'm not going to go on one of my temp service rants, so suffice to say if I wanted to regard my employees as disposable, treat them like crap, offer them no benefits, skim 40% of their pay, then discard them, I could do it all by myself without "help."

ahhh we do. Fortune 500 company.

Hiring engineers through temp agencies is a great way to cull out the chaf if you will.

This company uses it as a "try it before you buy it" method of employment.

I was hired this way. I applied for a principle engineers job directly with the company. Went through many interviews with the company. When they wanted to hire me, they sent me to a temp agency.

It's just an extended probationary measure.
Don't knock it until you try it.

[77ironhead]

Originally Posted by metal_twister

It's just an extended probationary measure.
Don't knock it until you try it.

I've tried it (I was desperate,4 times, specifically, and once was with manpower), and wouldn't ever do it again, if a company likes me (and my resume and experience) enough to hire me, they can damn sure do it themselves, and not jerk me around via the temp agency...if the company can't trust me at my word that I'm going to the job I've agreed to do, with due diligence to do it to the best of my abilities and skills, why should I trust them to do what they said they will?....the potential for abuse of the system is too wide-open....an example, you ask? there was the one company that hired me after in-house interviews etc, them required me to do 90 days temp probation....they hired me immediately after labor day, and my probation ran out dec 11th (IIRC)...at my 90 day review, the boss came to me and said 'we feel you haven't been working as fast as you can, and we want to extend your probation another 60 days and see if you improve'.......christmas was coming (2 paid holidays, small christmas bonus, according to co-workers) as well as the quarterly enrollment date for signing up for health ins and 401k (1 jan)....so the eval was codespeak for 'we want to jack you around and save a few pennies'.....I was a little pissed, and immediately went into slow-mo work speed (about 1/2 speed, for me), and after the 60 days were up, the same boss came around all full of flowery praise for the 'improvement' in my output....never again....if I want to make McDonald's money, I'll go work AT McDonald's, and leave my 3 roll-a-rounds at home, and the cancerous blight on the American workforce known as manpower (and their ilk) can kiss my *ss....and as an added bonus, I still had to do 60 days probation in-house (seperate from the temp time) before I could consider my employment 'secure'.....

[pilgrimtt]

The shop I worked in took advantage of temp guys and I heard the boss of the plant refer to temps as rent a bums. That man is dead now but it still irks me when I think about it. That shop hired some good people from the temp agency but usually it was because the old timers would shame the boss into it. Especially when we saw an exceptional person that we didn't want to see leave. The guys on the floor know more than the boss about who should be there and who shouldn't.

[Lambert]

I`ve recently switched jobs.
As I formally trained instrumentmaker I can say I had all the opportunities I could wish for in finding my next employer.
My resume was on monsterboard for 2 days......it got me 12 invitations , some from temp-agencies , some directly from companies.
I was hired on at two positions which I declined , mainly because I didn`t like what they had to offer.
3 Temp-agencies wanted to interview me straight away , without even having a suitable joboffer...

To me all of this is a clear signal technical people are what is wanted the most on either side of the pond.
I think it`s an employee`s market these days ; if you`ve been pondering switching jobs now`s the time.

[GeneH']

Originally Posted by metal_twister

ahhh we do. Fortune 500 company.

Hiring engineers through temp agencies is a great way to cull out the chaf if you will.

This company uses it as a "try it before you buy it" method of employment.

I was hired this way. I applied for a principle engineers job directly with the company. Went through many interviews with the company. When they wanted to hire me, they sent me to a temp agency.

It's just an extended probationary measure.
Don't knock it until you try it.

My employer does this with engineers. There are a lot of people out there with degrees who can't do it. This lets us weed out those folks.

Gene

[GeneH']

Originally Posted by Comatose

Manpower is a temp service. Who the HELL hires engineers through a temp service? Seriously.

I'm not going to go on one of my temp service rants, so suffice to say if I wanted to regard my employees as disposable, treat them like crap, offer them no benefits, skim 40% of their pay, then discard them, I could do it all by myself without "help."

Temp agencies came into being because some States passed laws that treat a job as a form of marriage and because the Courts have created all sorts of bizarro "entitlements" for employees.

Since the problem employee is not really an employee of the "Client" they are not "fired" but are "separated". They remain on the temp agency's books as an employee.

Some people here simply cannot imagine the screwballs, loafers and drug addled morons who work out there. They don't deserve compassion, they deserve the tough love of failing and then correcting their stupid behavior.

It's a flat out lie that Temp agencies do not offer benefits. I had vacation, medical benefits and 401K while with two temp agencies.

I was with three different agencies, one of which gave me medical and vacation days AFTER I'd worked over 1,000 hours, the other when I started working for the client which was a Fortune 50 company. The third one also offered me vacation but I left their employ for a full time regular job. I was offered medical benefits by all three.

Temp agencies let employers and employees take risks that today's stupid labor laws make almost impossible.

I have a technical and math background but I did a good bit of lab work at one job. Through a temp agency I was able to work for a Fortune 50 company in R&D. No way in hell would I have been able to work for them through "regular" channels. As a result of my stay there I acquired skills, experience and contacts that have opened all sorts of doors for me. My only regret about that job is that I did not stay there longer and did not grow there more. Life goes on.

Circuit board repair is a dying industry in the US. It's simply not done by most companies today. As a temp I was able to work with a manufacturer in their board repair group, where I acquired component level troubleshooting and mastered some awesome surface mount soldering skills. Today I can do things with a circuit board that most people cannot believe are possible, thanks to a temp agency.

Sure temps can be abused. I put up with some "Crap" that "regular" employees could not and would not tolerate. I was not given regular benefits like education, bidding into other departments or having the latitude to politely tell the boss to take a hike.

I had the liberty to walk right out the door or make a phone call and be "re-assigned". Over time I proved myself worthy of respect and was given the latitude to work.


I think some of you people are so fixated on the "get hired young and retire from that job" mindset that you don't realize how many time we'll all change jobs and careers today.

Temp agencies liberate working people from stupid labor laws that sometimes protect the lazy and incompetent, or protect race baiters or the entitled. They also let us do things that our backgrounds and education do not permit but that we might do well anyhow.

I was a good researcher and today I use those skills to perfect the equipment I help to test. I also use my troubleshooting skills in ways that my colleagues cannot because they were cheated of the chance to do component level troubleshooting.

Would I take a temp job today? Sure.

Gene

[dkmc]

"From our research, it is clear that across the country employers are experiencing a mismatch between the talent their businesses need and the skills and abilities potential employees possess,

DUH...

For the last 30 years or so anyway

But they had to do "research"......

[metlmunchr]

There's some real validity in what Gene says about what's out there in the "workforce", and why so many companies use the temp services.

The maintenance manager at a local place I do some repair work for related the followng to me a while back.....

He was looking to hire 2 utility laborers. Didn't need any real skills. The person would typically do a variety of jobs like riding on the floor cleaning machine or moving chip hoppers with a forklift, to other things like cutting grass or replacing light bulbs.

They went thru a temp agency and each one who showed up was told the job would pay $12.50 plus a good benefit package if their performance was acceptable. Thru the temp agency they got $10/hr. In order to foil the guys who just play the game to get their hooks into permanent employment, he didn't detail "acceptable performance" other than to tell each of them that he was sure they were capable of meeting the criteria. In reality, anyone who came to work M-F for 3 weeks without missing a day would have a permanent job starting Monday of the 4th week. Not exactly killer requirements.

When he was telling me this, earlier this year, he'd been thru 28 temp "workers" spanning most of a year. Of those, only 3 made it 2 weeks without missing a day. Of those 3, one didn't show back up for the 3rd week, and one couldn't show up for the 3rd week because he was in jail. When the 3rd one made it thru Tuesday of the 3rd week with perfect attendance, Harry said he'd decided to bring him in on Wednesday and go ahead and give him one of the permanent positions. That one didn't quite make the cut either though, because he showed up on Wed so drunk he could barely stand up.

When you get that kind of results in trying to find someone to fill jobs that aren't hard or dangerous, and have no real skill requirements at all, its not difficult to see why companies go thru temp agencies to "try before they buy".

[morsetaper2]

Where I work, I'd say most of the temp mech engineers we bring on can't make the cut. You just need to produce models/assys/dwgs that work using Pro/E. Be productive and show up. You'll have to troubleshoot when things go wrong, and manage multiple legacy projects. I bet 1 in 5 go beyond a month, most do not get their 90 contract renewed. Only one in the 4 yrs I've been their has come on permanent. I think a few years ago the odds of getting a decent engineer thru a temp agency where a bit better.

[GeneH']

Originally Posted by morsetaper2

Where I work, I'd say most of the temp mech engineers we bring on can't make the cut. You just need to produce models/assys/dwgs that work using Pro/E. Be productive and show up. You'll have to troubleshoot when things go wrong, and manage multiple legacy projects. I bet 1 in 5 go beyond a month, most do not get their 90 contract renewed. Only one in the 4 yrs I've been their has come on permanent. I think a few years ago the odds of getting a decent engineer thru a temp agency where a bit better.

I am not sure about our averages but most of the folks who I see there stick around after their temp contract runs out. We have a LOT of people from overseas now. They are good engineers, sincere and do not put on airs with hourly folks.

Gene

[WA Toolman]

Rude, clueless HR ppl don't help. Responses like"...oh you're a machinist eh. Too bad you don't have a skilled trade..." or "...we'll start you out on the assembly line, and after a year you can put in for a transfer to the machine shop..." (only to find out that only seniority and not skill counts.)

[JS]

Temp agencies are not woth the time or effort if a company can not or will not hire directly. I will not even waste my time getting an application .

[WA Toolman]

Originally Posted by JS

Temp agencies are not worth the time or effort if a company can not or will not hire directly. I will not even waste my time getting an application .

There are so many legal restrictions and costs associated with hiring someone, coupled with the legal liabilities associated with having to let someone go, that many small to medium size companies simply have no alternative but to have initial hiring done by temp agencies. I have not recently seen one job that was not through a temp agency. Even when I tried my old trick (s) of going through the yellow pages, or asking friends, it turns out the companies don't want to talk to you before you sign up with whatever temp agency that company deals with.

[jim rozen]

Side question: why ProE? What about solidworks?

Jim

[GeneH']

Originally Posted by WA Toolman

There are so many legal restrictions and costs associated with hiring someone, coupled with the legal liabilities associated with having to let someone go, that many small to medium size companies simply have no alternative but to have initial hiring done by temp agencies. I have not recently seen one job that was not through a temp agency. Even when I tried my old trick (s) of going through the yellow pages, or asking friends, it turns out the companies don't want to talk to you before you sign up with whatever temp agency that company deals with.

What amazes me is that the old "ninety probation" for getting a job in a closed shop is identical to a temp job and many here probably have done it. To them it was part of the initiation process.

Today, thanks in part to labor laws and in part to poorly raised people who do not have the skills needed to get along with others, companies have to resort to these agencies.


Some of the people I've worked with over the last five years would horrify most of the posters here.

One used to go around to anyone and say, "I can kick your ass!". He did it for several days until someone took him up on his offer. Another time he went on a "f--k you" jag, saying it to everyone except the supervisors. Finally someone asked him to "step outside".

One coworker likened him to a "six year old child". He used to ask me technical questions in a way that made his supervisor look "stupid". I finally told him, "He's responsible, so do what he tells you to do!".

One evening he tried to keep me from punching out, saying, "I can make you do what I want". He is an imposingly large man but is not a good fighter, standing in front of me with his legs apart in front of the clock. I decided to stoop to his level and made a feint of kicking him in his privates. While he recovered I punched out. He then complained that I was "hostile" to him. I told him when he wiped his Mother's milk off of his lips he would realize that grown men do not play school aged games with one another.

His road manners were appalling. He routinely would risk collision just to play "dominance games" on the road. I punished him by getting others to criticize his driving, and then called him names because of his "poor driving skills". Oddly enough this tactic worked, he never tried to play with me on the road again. Others tried to goad him into pulling over so that they could "Settle it like a man". He would not oblige them.

Twice he damaged expensive equipment by refusing to obey work instructions. They finally terminated him due to gross incompetence.

They had to tolerate this kid's crap for two years before they fired him. If he'd been a temp they could have canned him in a few months.


In contrast I worked as a temp for one firm. Another kid I worked with seemed okay at first. He was polite and seemed professional. We both wanted a permanent position with this firm.

I think things started to go downhilll when I suddenly felt like I was being crushed. He was leaning on me, pressing me into the work bench. I felt a tool being wrenched from my hands. I very much felt I was being assaulted and wanted to stab whoever it was but realized I'd be fired so I did not.

"I need this", he said, getting off of me.

I was able to get him to stop doing that, though it took two more times. I told him I did not like it, that it was unprofessional and that if management saw him doing it he'd never get a "real job" here. Worked like a charm.

I put up with having my arms wrenched partially out of their sockets while lifting things with him. I put up with him asking me to help him but him refusing to help me, and then he would boast at the end of the day that he was "more productive than me".

He damaged ware on several occasions to the point that Quality started to monitor him. Two groups on the line were holding a betting pool to see who would beat him up on the parking lot first after work.

We were finally both laid off. I was put into another department. He called me there and asked to speak to me. I told him I was doing well. He demanded that I "get him in". I said, "We don't have any other positions open here".

He asked to speak to the receptionist and said, "Gene isn't as good as me, you should fire him and hire me".

In an email he told me, "I expect performance". Me, being kindly, suggested that some diplomacy and empathy were in order. He said he had no time for such things. Fortunately I did not give him my permanent address so I lost touch with him.

I would learn that the temp agency placed him with two other departments there after he and I had worked together. Both fired him for being tardy and for incompetence.

However he wasn't "too bad". Some employees would not show up after payday because they were drunk from the night before. Others would pick fights or do other things I cannot mention here. Our hero was sober... even if by his own reckoning he'd been "fired sixty times in the last two years".


These examples contrast what companies can do with problem employees and it shows why temp agencies get a bad name.

I do not think that companies like temp agencies. I think that they accept them because it lets them weed out goofy people. Unfortunately some temp agencies need to do some weeding of their own because our second hero is the "typical agency temp' in some people's eyes.

Gene

[GeneH']

Originally Posted by WA Toolman

Rude, clueless HR ppl don't help. Responses like"...oh you're a machinist eh. Too bad you don't have a skilled trade..." or "...we'll start you out on the assembly line, and after a year you can put in for a transfer to the machine shop..." (only to find out that only seniority and not skill counts.)

Yeah, well how come that person is even talking to HR about their qualifications?

HR doesn't hire people. HR weeds out job candidates. Their job is to only submit "good candidates" to the hiring manager. How on Earth can someone who has never seen a lathe or a soldering iron know what is and is not a good candidate? So they evaluate based upon some pretty topical things, such as your appearance, "attitude" and what they think makes sense on your resume.

I had the chance to weed through an HR department's resume folder, along with interview notes, after a plant shutdown. I wish I'd kept it because the comments were golden, "Nice looking", "polite", "seems qualified", "rude", "late", "seemed nervous about something".

No where did the HR person note that the applicant "was a good fit". They cannot make that determination. The best anyone ever got was "send to ----- for a second interview".

I've never been hired by HR, except by a temp agency.

I always had to go to see the hiring manager, who does not have endless time to get to know me, so they have to make a quick decision. A safe decision is to leave the position open until an "ideal candidate" comes through the door.

So... you have to convince the hiring manager that you're a good risk. HR doesn't want you around, that's their job, to keep you out. They know what happens when "problem employees" are on the payroll. We're all potential problems for them. Besides, they're office people. You know what that means, don't you?

So, how do you get hired?

1. The company is desperate for warm bodies and is "staffing up". To be honest, that's how I got my latest job. They needed people and I fit the bill. I'm one of the last guys "off of the street" in my department. The rest quit and got different and sometimes better jobs.

2. You're known to the hiring manager. They like you and trust your work. Like you're transferring from another department or coming back to the company.

3. You're known to someone that the hiring manager trusts. A friend of a friend. I've seen people get good paying jobs this way and it's really the best way since we all know friends of someone else.

4. You have a reputation in the industry. Chances that you were courted by the hiring manager before, so you know you could probably get a job there.

5. You accept a paid interview through a temp agency. You get paid to show up for work, do your job and after a while they decide that you're a good risk. You gamble that they won't hire you, just as they gamble that you're not working your tail off until you're "in".

6. Other reasons I don't know about. It's a big world out there.

One thing that seems to fail is to be "too good to be true". For some blasted reason the ideal candidate attracts suspicion. I am not such a person but I've heard it said by some managers, who are afraid that the ideal candidate might want THEIR job. As they say "mediocrity forever!".

Gene

[jim rozen]

Gene you missed the single most important reasons that
folks get hired:

1) their prior work history, as detailed by their CV, matches
what the company needs, and

2) the references they list on the CV are respected industry
leaders *and* speak highly of the candidate being evaluated.

You have that, it's "game set match" as they say.

Rule one: read the CV. Rule two: contact the references
and ask specific questions.

Jim