How not to do economy stimulus?

[MrFluffy]

From :-
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125683832677216475.html

Some of the text (go read it, this is just a taster) :-

A Chinese wind-turbine company, with financing help from Beijing, has struck a deal to be the exclusive supplier to one of the largest wind-farm developments in the U.S., a sign of how Chinese firms are aggressively capitalizing on America's clean-energy push.

The 36,000-acre development in West Texas would receive $1.5 billion in financing through Export-Import Bank of China. Shenyang Power Group, a five-month-old alliance, would supply the project with 240 of its 2.5-megawatt wind turbines, among the biggest made in the world.
More

* Environment: Who's Building the Turbines?

The Obama administration is hoping a shift to renewable energy will inject new life into the U.S. manufacturing base and provide high-paying jobs, making up for losses in other sectors. But while the U.S. has poured money into renewable energy through tax credits and other subsidies, China has positioned itself to reap many of the benefits by ramping up its export machine.

Discuss...

[motion guru]

Our government and big businesses have spent the last 3 decades perfecting the art of being co-dependant dysfunctional leaches with taxpayers and employees bearing the brunt of massive screw ups and resultant debt.

China will benefit from the business - no doubt their citizenry will suffer from the polution and marginal working conditions.

In the long run - they will be better off for it and we will be worse off for it.

[The Energy Rebel]

That just makes me sick.
I don't know why we don't "export" the CEO's and whoever approves the gov't funds, take away their passports and put them on the "no fly" list so they can never return.

[sch]

Part of the reason production and building of wind farms went to Europe and Asia
in the '90s was the building of such idiocies makes no sense unless there is strong
political pressure and support (ie tax subsidies and requirements that the output of
the wind farm be bought by standard suppliers of electric power) the building of
wind farms makes no economic sense. If you have to borrow the full cost of the farm
and build the transmission system, deal with the fact that wind farm electrical output
can vary over a 3-4:1 range in minutes, depending on wind speed, then building one
logically is silly, which is why very few were built. The cost of a 1000 MW of wind power is 2-4x the cost of a coal plant. Sans local markets in the US production went elsewhere where it was politically supported. Then you have to deal with the NIMBY factions for both the towers and the transmission lines required. Since the mentioned plant is being built in
Texas, which is essentially isolated from the national power grid, such as it is, you only
have to deal with state authorities and the nimby factor in sparsely populated West Texas
is smaller than more attractive areas further west or heavily populated areas in the eastern
US.

[MrFluffy]

It has indeed been sited in Texas as opposed to other states because of ease of legislation and permits etc, but that will be offset against the power circuits which will have to be put into place into the grid to support all of this anyway.

The only way to gain financing on the loans required for the project was to find a backer willing to loan a lot of money. The US Gov and Texas stepped up for the majority of funds but the only other people in the current market who were willing to step up to the plate with VC funds for it were the chinese banks, who are stipulating a must use chinese products in their loan.
I think everyone is quietly hoping it takes off, removing the need for chinese VC money and its buy chinese clause. Hopefully that won't be too late for the other players in the turbine market though.

Chinese VC announcement.
http://www.wtop.com/?nid=111&sid=1798085


Vestas themselves state the market has slowed down due to credit problems. Namely the only people lending money are chinese banks with their use chinese clause... :-
http://www.denverpost.com/business/ci_13655311

[ColoradoBoy]

Free markets. Global economy.

We keep hearing from some on PM how necessary & wonderful they are.

[TurningHead]

...spent the last 3 decades perfecting the art of being co-dependant dysfunctional leaches....

Agree completely... but what to do when the gate has been open for so long ?

Mr Fluffy - I know what "VC" meant in the sixty's.... please shed a little light on it's meaning in this thread.

[The Energy Rebel]

Venture Capital

And as to what to do about it?
See my previous post.

[TurningHead]

Venture Capital... I guess that should have been obvious and telegraphs my very weak knowledge of the shell game called finance.

Rebel - I have no real experience in global things but some how I doubt the solution you suggest will find any traction in the real world.

Someone said "He who holds the Gold rules" ... and the cold hard fact is China has it's grip on the Gold and thus our neck.

[The Energy Rebel]

Originally Posted by TurningHead

Rebel - I have no real experience in global things but some how I doubt the solution you suggest will find any traction in the real world.

You are probably right, but I'd sure like to give it a try!
I don't think it would take but 2 or 3 deportations and the rest would get the message.

[Dr Stan]

Originally Posted by The Energy Rebel

You are probably right, but I'd sure like to give it a try!
I don't think it would take but 2 or 3 deportations and the rest would get the message.

I'm with you on this one.

The only thing I'd do differently would be to use roofing tar, chicken feathers and a rail from a split rail fence.

Oh and one more thing, put it on all the TV networks.

[Mad Machinist]

Originally Posted by The Energy Rebel

That just makes me sick.
I don't know why we don't "export" the CEO's and whoever approves the gov't funds, take away their passports and put them on the "no fly" list so they can never return.

The bad news is that things in the USA are not nearly bad enough for that to happen. The good news is that when things do get beyond a breaking point the guilty will suffer a much worse fate.

I really can't think of any empire, civilization, etc. in the history of mankind that pulled its head out of its ass once it was in a state of decline. And I truly believe we are in an irreversible decline at this point. As the saying goes revolutions are fought on empty stomachs. Things will probably have to get that bad before the American people do anything. We have, without doubt, become a nation of sheep.

And just in case you think that major upheavals in society are a thing of the distant past and won't happen to us, below is an excerpt with some recent examples.

Denis , Geneve: Dec 27 2008

In 1945 the Italian leader Benito Mussolini was caught by partisans and executed; his body was hung upside down from a gas station signpost for display to the public. No one complained, No lawyers came forward and decried this heinous crime. They didn’t bring briefs to the courthouse declaring that Mussolini deserved a fair trial. All were silent. Mussolini had brought Italy to ruin and the people were sick of it. The evidence was all around them and the verdict of the jury unanimous.

In 1989, Romanian leader Nickolai Chauchescu was taken out into the courtyard along with his wife, Alaina, and shot. The crime was never prosecuted as a new government was formed and life began anew. Chauchescu was full of himself as he built huge monuments to himself at the expense of the people. He had his government shower his wife with undeserved scientific accolades, all as the suffering of the people increased. As tensions escalated his bodyguards warned Chauchescu that it was no longer safe to leave the presidential palace. Chauchescu laughed off these warnings until one day he discovered his bodyguards had fled in fear for their own lives at the hands of the people.

Chauchescu and his wife were taken from the palace into the courtyard and Alaina’s last words were, “Nickolai, I think that they are going to shoot us!” Executed by the court of public opinion, a verdict swift and sure. A verdict that every future leader of Italy or Romania is well aware of and not because of case law. It is the unspoken line, the line that dare not be crossed because civilization is a voluntary organization. If we feel that the laws and covenants cease to work for the common good then we have every right to withdraw our participation.


I think many have come to believe that the laws and covenants have ceased working. As a whole our Government, Fed, State and Local, and its members have pretty much become a self serving cabal, both as a group and as individuals. All we have to do now is wait for the citizens to withdraw their participation.

[jdj]

Originally Posted by The Energy Rebel

That just makes me sick.
I don't know why we don't "export" the CEO's and whoever approves the gov't funds, take away their passports and put them on the "no fly" list so they can never return.

They deserve a much worse fate. I mean to include the lowest government employee to the highest, that are responsible for this.
Mainly the highest.
Jeff

[DaveKamp]

At 2.8MW per turbine, they're already obsolete.

The mills being installed up here (Iowa) early this year were 3.4MW'ers, and the next generation mills will break 4MW.

There's many reasons why this is a very bad situation, but it clearly illustrates a combined loss of leadership and vision in corporate and governmental levels.

But this isn't the first time we've allowed legislators to come up with 'divine plans' to solve the country's (or the world's) problems... we should know better.

[moonlight machine]

I just can't believe the Chinese are making wind turbines.... Our local member of the House of Representatives, Mary Jo Killroy (a true moron) assured me that only the U. S. would be making wind turbines, and solar panels also. Green jobs, you know. That is what the miners are going to do after the coal mines all get shut down.

[gmatov]

Neither for nor against the wind turbines, those who grouse that there is not enough interconnect to tie them into the grid.

Any new coal or nuke plant also needs transmission lines, NEW transmission lines, and the lines they tie into need upgraded to carry the additional power.

That's one of the biggest reasons that we have had blackouts and brownouts over the years. Not enough capacity to deliver the power to where it's needed from where it's produced.

So far as that goes, it depends on the size of the wind field what kind of transmission lines are needed. These aren't nuke plant outputs. 2.8 MW is 2800 KW, and depending on the voltage, relatively small wires will carry that load. Some of the hi-lines are in the 765 KV range. Millions of KW at usage voltages.

Whether the wind farms are economical or not, I don't know. If they need subsidies to make a profit, well, so does corn ethanol, and we have spent billions on that. At least the electricity produced is a net gain IN power, not a reduction of mileage and power for an additional expense.

Cheers,

George

mm,

You'd trust a Mormon's word on whether you'd get the work?

[jdj]

It always surprises me that people mention the "transmission" and related power grid issues as the problem with wind or solar power. I should say, ONE of the problems. I know that this is a rather simplistic way of looking at it, but... they can put a man on the moon, but they can't basically make some god damn wire and run it where it needs to go? It has been done before! The utility companies don't have any money? THAT is a laugh!

Jeff

[thruthefence]

Hey George!

Want to have a discussion on what the Ethanol subsidies did to Corn Futures?

Not to mention the spot market price the world's starving billions had to pay!
GO GREEN!!!!

Tweedledum-and-Tweedledee-agreed-to-have-a-battle!

[thruthefence]

http://centurean2.wordpress.com/2009...-this-pattern/

and here is the original article


http://network.nationalpost.com/np/b...-disaster.aspx

[The Energy Rebel]

Originally Posted by thruthefence

http://centurean2.wordpress.com/2009...-this-pattern/

and here is the original article


http://network.nationalpost.com/np/b...-disaster.aspx

Interesting articles. They seem to contradict what the Danes have to say, including the largest energy co., DONG (Yeah, I know but it's Denmark Oil and Natural Gas).
The math is what I don't understand. Even if the wind is unreliable, why would it require more power plants then before you added the wind turbines? Are they trying to say that the wind turbines are using electricity?
The only reason I question it, is I saw this last night. It's also posted on "electric car" thread. Some of the storage problems associated with wind turbines are offset by using the electric cars for the storage.

http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/544/index.html

The real point though, was that whatever we do, make sure it benefits the U.S. first, not China.