US Aid Expected To Bring Cost of Electric Cars Close To $30,000.

[ColoradoBoy]

Originally Posted by SeymourDumore

hey, your battery won't be up and running for another 7 hours, so you cannot go and get that kid of yours out of trouble from 300 miles away.

I don't know where Coloradoboy lives, but around here I spend over $1k/month between my home and shop, all the while my winter gas heating bill is $80-100/mo for a 3000 square foot/25' ceiling shop.

Wonder if he can beat that in Colorado using electricity?

Get real guy and wake up to the rest of the world.

You are just fortunate to have the alternative to rev up your gas car whenever and not have to depend on a fine elect. car to run errands with. My long drive for big city errands is 53 miles one way. Denver is 212 miles one way, bigger yet. Most of my errands are 12mi. 15mi. 19mi. or 26mi. one way to the next towns and shit, I live in the country 1/3mi. off the nearest country road where law enforcement is 30 min. away or more. If you need to support your life style with trips 300 miles one way, I feel sorry for you. Did you do any planning before chosing a place to live?

My property taxes last year were $1180. for 20 acres and 6000 feet total of heated shop, house and one storage building, yours? I did about deck the assesor last fall and backed him into the fence until he decided to lower my taxes after the forest fire burned most of my trees, so taxes will be cheaper yet next year and after. Enjoy your 25 foot ceilings, do you dance up there? I do just fine with 12 but we dance on the floor. We do have lots of insulation up there and walls also, do you?. Bigger stuff we just do outside and wear insulated clothing in winter. Maybe you bought a house in the wrong place?

If you can't look at a map and figure where Colorado is, I'll help you? Colorado is south of Wyoming, west of Kansas, north of New Mexico and east of Utah. Most of those states are along the Rocky Mountains which are west of Iowa. My house is at 6600 feet and hoot, we get lots of snow and cold. 1/2hr by car brings 10,000ft+ and huge winter. Does that help you?

My total elect. bill for shop (250amp 240v) and house (120amp 240v) has never been above $54. monthly, 6000 sq. feet under roof. That doesn't include the storage building which only has 2 elect bulbs and no heat, who knows how much those casual use bulbs burn. Yep, I take advantage of a no-profit COOP extended REA power grid. The farmers got it figured right long ago, sorry you missed out. And they don't give a shit if I weld, or make chips, or metal dust off their elect. grid. I have thought about building a 6 foot tall Tesla Coil to entertian the neighbors on dark nights across the valley but am worried about my dogs and that those visual guests might call the volunteer fire dept which would piss off some of my friends who would show up hoses in hand.

My total non-elect heating expense for the entire year is exactly $1750.US Dollars, average the past 5 years. That number supplies hot water and heat. If I start to gen my own elect. we can zip that to zero. We don't have natural gas but use propane which costs more. Oh, in case you forgot to mention water costs, my domestic water never goes above $29. monthly but I did have to join another COOP and pay again $50. for membership up front which I get back at market rates when I disconnect. I could get water for free since I own rights to 4 year round springs on my property but I choose to use that for growing corn to sell at top dollar for ethanol production like many of my neighbors.

I have to tell you, the Denver paper just had a story about a local rancher borrowing $900k. at low cost from our US government to install a hydro plant which will make money for them and supply power to the grid. I'm sure their elect. power would be free. Maybe I should look into that and we have lots of wind here also since my house is 50 feet from the edge of of a mesa that rises 1000ft from the valley floor. Shit more chepa elect. power and I'm sure there is a low cost grant for that. Everyone I know with one or more wind generators on their property makes money selling to the COOP grid.

Just a suggestion but maybe you need to get off your ass and figure how to live cheaper instead of moaning about high electric costs you are apparently helpless to do anything about.

[jim rozen]

"...Gasoline must be at $ .75/gal to compete economically with this car."

Turn this around. I think gas has to go *over* four bucks a gallon before cars
like this start to be demanded and manufactured. And the oil companies are
very carefully titrating the cost of gasoline so this will never, ever happen.

The convenience factor for gasoline powered cars is just too huge. When you
pump gas into your car, the nozzle you hold in your hand (the GAS nozzle that is)
is adding energy to your car at some certain rate. So many joules are being
pumped into it, in that minute or so the fueling takes.

Anyone want to hazard a guess, about what sort of units are most appropriate
for describing that rate of energy addition?

Jim

[SeymourDumore]

Hey CB! I think you misunderstood my post dude!
I was replying to your earlier post about electricity being a bargain.
That 1K/month is my ELECTRIC BILL!!!!
I live 2 miles from my shop and I can spit further than that let alone walk in a nice day.

And I like the the Right coast just fine thank you very much.

[dp]

Originally Posted by jim rozen

Everyone knows that ac allows long distance power transmission and the
simple connection between different power grids.

The Pacific Intertie is DC, oddly enough.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_DC_Intertie

[gmatov]

Seymour,

"As far as home heating, that is ready to go today. No changes needed other than adding an electric waterheater and electric radiators, both of which is 99.8% efficient, definiately unobtainable by any other means."

That is not true. I cannot say what they consider good efficiency in modern electric power plants. It used to be in the neighborhood of 40 % or so. Then you add in the cost of delivering coal or oil, fuel consumed to mine, pump, deliver them to the plant and you might be down to less than 30% (Oh, consider line losses, too!) by the time it reaches your house so you can use it superefficiently.

Gas turbine peaking units might be 20% efficient. Oil, maybe near 30%. So you're getting 30% of the heat energy of the fuel in a handy form at 99.8% efficiency, minus line losses, and you know how much line loss can be. Plug in your circle saw at the end of 100 foot of 16 wire and you got maybe 98 volts out of 120.

I'm sure the utilities can tell you what their losses are, re their production at the plants versus their meter readings at residence and commercial meters. 80 to 90 %? Less?

How much power is delivered at the end of a 1000 mile high line?

Cheers,

George

[SeymourDumore]

George

My statement regarding efficiency was related "at point of use"
IOW I did not include any generation losses, transportation losses or any other factors. Those are included in the KWh price, just as the price of heating oil reflects the cost of mining, transportation and refining.
If we were able to reduce the price of electricity by whatever means, it would primarily the most efficient and economical energy source for either heating or mechanical purposes.
And that is my whole point in this thread. We're substituting battery reasearch for EV use, when the cost of elelctricity ( including the environmental cost of current generation ) is still rather high. The EV market would increase the demand on this not so economical source. In my opinion, we should reduce the cost of it first, even by way of subsidized research.
Now, I would entertain the idea of electricity storage for the undependable "renewable" sources. Wind doesn't blow all the time, neither is there sun all the time. When there is however, the demand must be able to accomodate the supply, all without having to keep an oil, coal or gas fired generator on standby. If you look at the other thread regarding Denmark's wind generation, you can google that most of their power is re-sold to neighboring countries, some of which can easily shut down their plants and accept the windpower source when available. Having a sufficient amount of storage ( chemical batteries, centrifuges or whatever) the peak supply from these could be pushed into a peak demand period.
Of course, having a mother of all battery banks in Coloradoboy's back yard, populated with millions of EV batteries would be a possibility, but then we all have to live in his 'hood.

[jim rozen]

"The Pacific Intertie is DC, oddly enough."

Correct, dc allows a simpler intertie between large
grids. Also a non-negligible loss for long distance
ac high lines is radiation loss. This is not a factor
for dc lines.

This is a relatively recent innovation.

Compared with Tom, Niccolai, etc.

Jim

[gmatov]

JimR,

His name was Nikola. Serb, not Russian.

I have to look into the DC thing some more. I have read this on the other board from Evan.

Tesla was able to generate and ship electricity long distance because of the ability to transform to usable voltage, whereas DC could only be effective at distance of a mile or less. I do not know if there were inverters in those days. I don't know that we are using massive inverters today, to ship DC a 1000 miles and make usable AC.

High lines run 765,000 volts, and do we ship DC at the same voltage? And how do we make that into usable AC?

Ah! Just did a Google.

http://www.cga.ct.gov/2003/olrdata/e...003-R-0530.htm

http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.c...=A1ARTA0002566

"On the other hand, DC systems are subject to several limitations. They are primarily designed for point-to-point transmission of power, and it is expensive to build the converter stations needed to connect a DC line to a power plant or substation, as well as to the AC transmission grid. Each converter station costs up to $ 50 million and can use up to three or four acres of land. In addition, the unavailability of DC circuit breakers restricts the feasibility of using DC in a grid. All of the connected DC lines in the grid must be taken out of service when an outage occurs or when a segment needs to be turned off for repairs or modifications. Unlike AC lines, power does not automatically reroute itself to avoid blackouts when there is a fault on a DC line."

Does that mean that an outage would be bigger than what we have had in the recent past? The entire Upstate Area a couple years ago? You lived through that one, didn't you?

Seymour,

"Wind doesn't blow all the time, neither is there sun all the time. When there is however, the demand must be able to accomodate the supply, all without having to keep an oil, coal or gas fired generator on standby."

Well, besides that you transposed the "demand" "supply" thing, no. This is supplemental electricity, something we would not have if someone did not think they could make money from it, or, in a homeowner's case, save a little on their fuel bill by maybe making enough current to preheat or even heat their water in a hydronic system or in their domestic hot water system.

Homeowners, unless they are going to spend thousands, are not looking to sell electricity. They are looking to reduce their consumption of purchased electricity. An 85 A auto alternator would make 1 KW which is 3400 BTU which would make a 10% dent in my Winter heating bill, as well as a dent in my Summer water heating bill. With a Savonius Rotor, I don't know the power that can be derived, maybe 2 alternators, maybe larger ones, 125 Amp, so more potential savings, and I think I am capable of thet.

Nor any worry about disconnect from the Mains. Heaters would be in a preheat tank. No connect to the mains.

Just rambling as to what could be done

Cheers,

George

[SeymourDumore]

George, I did not transpose the demand and supply.
Without storage, the excessive "supply" from the windmills ( or solar ) at a given time cells must be used up OR stored.
If it isn't, then they must idle.
Similarly, when demand is higher than the supply from the renewables, a standard "fossil" fired plant must be able to immediately make up the difference.
Of course, in a city environment one can use the excess to heat something and use it as a hydronic storage. That is where a resell comes into play.
You in the suburbs can use your excess electricity to supply power to the poosr sucker on the 58th floor in a NYC highrise to let him have his ass washed in warm water .....
Anyhow, this is beyond the subject here somewhat.
Generation first, battery for EV is second is what I say...but I'm dumb as a stump.

[Mark Rand]

[QUOTE=SeymourDumore;1226550]Similarly, when demand is higher than the supply from the renewables, a standard "fossil" fired plant must be able to immediately make up the difference./QUOTE]

This makes no difference from the normal operation of a country's grid. A grid will normally have sufficient spinning reserve to account for the loss of an entire station. Although wind speeds rise and fall, you are unlikely to see unanticipated changes in wind generation (over the entire grid) at a rate greater than that which can be handled by the plant that is already in the grid.

Take an example like the British grid:- Peak demand 60GW. 1.5GW of spinning reserve available instantly, 2GW of pumped storage available within 16 seconds, 2 GW of open cycle gas turbine generation available within 5 minutes, 8 GW on hot standby available within 2 hours, 10GW more available within 10 hours. This is what is currently in place.

The rate of variability in wind generation, taken over the whole grid is insignificant compared with the contingency already in place to allow for loss of generation and to permit Nuclear plants to run at full power 24/7.

[ColoradoBoy]

Originally Posted by SeymourDumore

And that is my whole point in this thread. We're substituting battery reasearch for EV use, when the cost of elelctricity ( including the environmental cost of current generation ) is still rather high.

I'm not sure why you think all research dollars are focused on batteries. Maybe you can explain that?

Having once worked in lab budgets for a large corp I can tell you most science work DOES NOT produce much in immediate payback. None the less, the hope is documented research eventually reduces searching again from scratch by someone else or what was found can be used by the next scientist and improved upon.

If Influenza research was entirely focused on a cure, there would be no vaccine to protect your family. I'm glad they look at a few alternatives that work right now outside the box of total cure.

I've done everything I can here that gives reasonable payback to reduce consumption and increase yield from wasted sources. Both buildings have their greatest exposure south facing and are glassed within reasonable cost or existing structure limits floor to ceiling and corner to corner with 6" walls which were a no brainer since the walls were open for more window install. Passive solar on the cheap using standard 2x thermal patio door windows. A bigger savings was tossing the air conditioning and going to Evap cooling. I had payback after three years on heating and 1 year for cooling. What have you done to reduce your energy consumption?

Hey, I'm glad to read you can spit over 2 miles and walk that far as stated in post #43. Are you in the Guiness Book of World Records yet?

Just an observation but you seem content to moan about the status quo and hip shoot at any new idea that doesn't fit your pardigm of cheap electricity NOW. I'm sure you could find a few easy things right now that would reduce your energy bill.

[SeymourDumore]

CB

As per the OP:

Originally Posted by Dr Stan

Bloomberg News (10/21, Green, Ohnsman) reports, "General Motors Co. and other automakers may be moving closer to the $30,000 electric car, $10,000 cheaper than it has estimated, as Obama administration subsidies cut battery costs by as much as half." In all, companies will receive $2.4 billion in federal grants. A $7,500 federal tax credit per car would reduce the cost of a $40,000 car to $32,500. Aid is expected to reduce the cost of a battery pack from about $16,000 to closer to $8,000. "Michigan has four projects aimed at electric-vehicle battery-cell production that were funded by the Obama administration, including joint ventures backed by Johnson Controls Inc., A123 Systems Inc. and Dow Chemical Co."

.....
Besides the US, China and France have pledged tax credits and subsidies to reduce the costs of electric cars. The cost of batteries is seen as the greatest problem for makers.

And plese tell me where do I piss and moan about wanting to keep the status quo!


Mark

I do agre with you, but I do not believe the US has that capability yet or at least not spread widely enough yet.
Remember that most of the electricity consumption in the US is on the coastlines, while the greatest renewable potential is in the middle, quite a bit distance from the major consumers. The stimulus put forth earlier this year was (is) supposed to address it sometime, but in the meanwhile spending money on the battery research side seems wasteful. Yes, with the subsidy you'll get a cheaper battery which you can fill with not so cheap electricity which is still primarily fossil generated.

[thermopsummit]

for the most part most of the complete sight is very good, this particular forum is however mostly rants and raves, and socialist values seem to prevail,
How about more discussion on how we as a country can either hold manufacturing here or some of these brilliant minds build a good ol made in usa product again, one guy brags about his low rates with a co-op, heck if all the folks on your co-op plug in a electric car, maybe that will require a grid upgrade, gotta be paid for somewhere, guess your rate will go up or maybe just maybe one of the big companies buys it after bankruptcy hits then you rates double or triple electric companies are monopolies they do not answer to many, and few have a choice , pp&L supplies mine in wyoming, they may or may not be fair, I have no choice, but you upgrade transmission lines or anything else or those silly transformers on your street corner are 12+ thousand apiece , imagine doubling load on each house or every other house, so 2 houses pay for 12k guess your bill goes up or utility company goes out of business, my rant off this is not a good 1st post, rather ask a decent question or comment
Sad

PS some awaited technology is in the motors, brushless motors how can you keep the controller cooler, look at what rc folks are doing apply

[jim rozen]

"and socialist values seem to prevail,"

Yeah let's shoot the commies. That'll fix it all.

How about more discussion on how we as a country can either hold manufacturing here

You're not paying attention. That is basically all this subforum DOES discuss. If you
want to go back and read you will find that there are common themes:

1) healthcare. Lately.

2) manufacturing in the US. And how to keep it here.

3) education. What's wrong with it. And how to fix it.

4) occasional abstract economic theories.

Jim

[thermopsummit]

Thats why your moderator posts numerous warnings or freezes a thread
Give me a break

[The Energy Rebel]

Originally Posted by thermopsummit

for the most part most of the complete sight is very good, this particular forum is however mostly rants and raves, and socialist values seem to prevail,
How about more discussion on how we as a country can either hold manufacturing here or some of these brilliant minds build a good ol made in usa product again,

Well as far as keeping manufacturing here in the USA, I guess the capitalist have figured out where the workers are who will work for a quarter an hour and sleep on the shop floor.
And that ain't me.

[thermopsummit]

sigh it sure is not me either, the problem , we need people in charge who want to build something, not make bottom line only I think.

[gmatov]

Thermo,

You will see fewer locked threads and warnings in this sub forum than any other that I know.

The Mod in this one will jump in with both feet, and debate you till the cows come home.

Unashamed to say that I have been banned here and there for WAY less than some of the posts I have made here, and the same for a good many other posters have made points that would get a "Banned Forever" in some of the others I have been on.

CB is right that research is done for its own sake. If it is not feasible at the time, the work has been done, the time and circumstance may make that research germane when events change, the science allows for its use.

You don't have to reinvent the light bulb, the work is already done that is now feasible.

Ballistics would not be where it is today, nor Physics, without Newton's discoveries. Fortunately, Newton was not a government nor business employee. No one told him to ditch that crap, figure out how to wring another 1/10 % from the operation cost.

Seymour,

Once upon a time, steamboats and trains were wood fired. The best fuel we had. Then coal was mined more extensively, and coal became the preferred fuel, and soon enough, 1920's and on, oil became the fuel of choice.So we are burning coal and oil and gas for electricity generation, and nuclear, all of which are expensive to deliver.

Wind is free, though it can be sporadic, but, what the hell? If you have farms here and there, some will produce round the clock, and every KW put in the grid is good.

Look at it this way. All generating stations are in parallel. Just as you can put 100 batteries in parallel (in the Tesla, they use near 6000 cells to make up their power pack, XX of them per battery in series, to get the voltage, then parallel those batteries to get the current they need to get any significant mileage from the entire battery pack), we have generation plants all over the country, all on the grid.

If they are all producing flat out, that is if the demand is there, adding a farm of wind gens will take some of the load off them, just as all the cells in a battery will yield less energy if the demand is not there. The demand is the thing, in electricity.

So the wind gens add to the supply, and the coal or nuke plants will see that they are not being drawn on to their capacity, the control rooms will see the percentage of their supply that is demanded, and when there is too much potential supply, may take a gen off line, which makes all the other gens in their system, including wind, produce closer to their capability.

How much per hour does a million KW plant burn in fuel? Probably enough that utilities are happy to have the wind energy thrown into the mix.

Cheers,

George

[SeymourDumore]

Amen George! Tough wind isn't the end-all be-all source, it certainly is one of a possible few and is ready now.
So why are we pissing money away SUBSIDIZING batteries for EV when we could spend that in extra generation (renewable) instead, where there is an actual return on investment is beyond me.

[thermopsummit]

I hope i can post a link, here is some very good information on the challenges of electric cars in design, http://www.teslamotors.com/blog4/?p=45
Interesting reading, about 5 years ago when i seen rc motors the size of a D battery were flying models with 5-6 foot wing spans i tried to scale up the technology, its not cheap or easy, the potential though for 90% efficient motors is there, we ran into cooling problems both in the dc motor and the controller.
But to upgrade our current grids if everyone had a electric car would be tremendous, and although our government is helping with the cost of technology to build these cars where are we going to plug these in? copper is very expensive transformers are very expensive, when a given monopoly (electric utility) realizes they have your auto fuel problem tied in as well what makes you think they wont have surcharges everywhere?
My 2 cents
Richard