More large lathes, 1909

Made by Shanks of Johnstone, Scotland, 1909 for John Brown Ltd., for turning turbine rotors.
102” centre height. 15 ft diameter faceplate. Be sure to note the size of the man.

Shanks ended production in the 1920s slump, and their business, along with that of Buckton of Leeds and Armstrong-Whitworth’s machine tools division was taken over by Craven Bros, who centralised production in a new factory near Manchester.



An older and smaller Shanks lathe, this time at Mitsubishi’s dockyard in Nagasaki.
This is the de Luxe version, with footplates to help the operators reach the controls.
Note the calipers suspended from the crane.



This is a 15 ft swing lathe made by Harvey of Govan, Scotland, for Fairfield Shipbuilders, also conveniently at Govan.

Appears the Shanks lathe at Mitsubishi's shipyard is a line belt machine, while the other two are powered by electric motors?

At about what time did the changeover occur on machine tools, from line belt power to electricity?

DryCreek,

I have another photo of Mitsubishi's lathe, which shows that it does have its own motor, mounted on the floor.

Thanks Asquith, I did not see any overhead belts, even though they are visible in other areas of the shop. It did appear to have some belting at the rear of the photo and I guessed wrong.

Any opinion on when the changeover occurred on powering machine tools. I have a 1905 Hendey Shaper and it was mfg as a line belt machine.

Interesting question. I would imagine it took several decades for the changeover to take place. Even after electric motors became cheap and acceptable, there would probably be plenty of demand for machines in established lineshaft shops.

According to L T C Rolt in ‘Tools for the Job’, Monsieur Gramme demonstrated a machine driven by a motor in 1873, and in 1874 he installed a motor to drive the lineshafting in his own works. Mr Rolt says that the first attempts to combine motor and machine in one unit did not occur until 1901, which seems surprising. The advantages of not having lineshafts must have been compelling.

The introduction of individual electric motors allowed a lot more science to be applied to cutting technology. I recently read something about a Mr Wicksteed who motorised a planer and was shocked (not literally) by the amount of measured power used for the fast return motion. This led him to produce planers that cut in both directions, with the same speed for forward and return.

cool stuff, Asquith. What do you figure was top speed on a 15 footer!?

Jeff,

The 15' swing, 102" centre height Shanks lathe had a speed range of 0.3 - 20 rpm, with a 70 HP motor.

The Hulse lathe in an earlier post, with 13' 4" swing, 93" centre height, was more of a racer, with a speed range of 0.4 - 30 rpm. 100 HP motor

The question might be better phrased, "When did they start designing machine tools with the electric motor in mind?" For a while, they just attached electric motors to machined designed for line shafts. Then at some point, they began to make machines with room inside the casting or base to put the electric motor.

The book published by Cincinnti Miling Machine Co. in 1919, shows line driven machines. But it also shows machines with electric motors mounted to one side. They were still makine cone drive spindles, but were also offering machines with a transmission.

The parts manual for my Cincy is dated 1938. The machine itself was made in 1940. It is strictly an electric motor design, with the motor inside the column. The tranmission, however, is very similar to the one shown in the 1919 book.

So sometime between 1919 and 1938, Cincinnati Milling Machine Co made the switch.

There is some discussion of this on a web site. Click here. On the right of that page are some links. I think the link for this is "Line versus Electric" or something like that.

"The 15' swing, 102" centre height Shanks lathe had a speed range of 0.3 - 20 rpm, with a 70 HP motor."

Probably all carbon steel tools in those days? And they likely didn't turn many 1"Ø shafts...haha I bet that looked real slow from a distance, but get up next to the toolbit and a lot of "stuff" would be going by

While reading about Joseph Clement yesterday, I see he recorded, in 1829, that 15 ft/min was the cutting speed for cast iron.
So a 15 ft swing in 1829 would have required the 0.3 rpm speed, however, I am sure speeds would have picked up by the time these lathes were made, HSS was being used I would think.

The belt drive issue was confused a bit by manufacturers offering flat belts long after they were outdated. I was reading a 1947 machine tool advertising book which showed Cannedy Otto still making drill presses that looked 30-50 years old.

There is a Harvey in AEP's Central Shops, near Charleston, WV. Where can Harvey information be looked up?

Probably all carbon steel tools in those days?

Click to expand...

HSS development occured before 1900.

Hi guys;

As another reference point on the introduction of electric motors, I have a copy of the 1905 LeBlond Horizontal Mill catalog. While all the mills are basically designed for flat belt/lineshaft drive, in the back of the catalog they offer electric motor drives for all models.

It's a nicely integrated kit of castings that mounts the motor above the frame and completely encloses a single belt drive down to the spindle. It has a huge round rheostat mounted on the side, so I'm assuming that it's DC variable speed (?). They say "We can apply any make of motor to our machines..." and there's a table on recommended motor sizes (ranging from 2HP for the No. 1 mill to 10HP for the No. 5). There's a long treatise on the advantages of electric drive machines in plant layout, energy consumption, etc.

This was earlier than I would have expected, so I guess there was a reasonable availability of individual machine size motors at that time.

Bruce Johnson

Locoguy,

Information on defunct British machine tool makers is hard to find. I found this by Googling:-

‘G & A Harvey, engineers and machine tool makers, were founded in 1857 in Govan, Glasgow, Scotland. The company’s works were located at the Albion Works, Govan, and produced a wide range of heavy lathes, slotting, planing, boring and screwing machines.

In 1937, the company came together with 4 other engineering and machine tool makers to form Scottish Machine Tool Corporation Ltd. These companies, namely James Bennie & Sons Ltd, Glasgow; Loudon Bros Ltd, Johnstone, Renfrewshire, Scotland; Craig & Donald Ltd, Johnstone; and James Allan Senior & Sons Ltd, Glasgow; all retained their separate autonomy, even though they had amalgamated. Joint catalogues were produced under the name Scottish Machines Tools Corporation Ltd yet machines were branded with the name of their own manufacturer. In the late 1960s, Scottish Machine Tool Corporation Ltd became an associate of Wilkins-Mitchell, forging equipment manufacturers, and in 1982 it went into liquidation.

Source:
Michael Moss & John Hume, Workshop of the British Empire: Engineering and Shipbuilding in the West of Scotland (London, 1977).’

From:-
http://www.archives.gla.ac.uk/collects/catalog/ugd/151-200/ugd175-4.html

There’s a bit of info in ‘A History of Machine Tools 1700-1910’ by W Steeds., including a picture of an unusual boring machine from 1863. This looked like a plano-miller, but the horizontal bridge could be tilted. Also, the table had an inserted portion that could be tilted. Another picture shows a duplex wheel lathe from 1892. This has two headstocks, side by side and back to back, slightly staggered – a space-saving arrangement.

Franco has reminded me of the big lathe in this post, pointing out that the same photo has just appeared in the latest Australian Model Engineer:-

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=000042

It's a 230 ton Craven.

Art -Deco asks, "When did theystart designing machine tools with electric motors in mind? My thoughts are longer back than we think. About 1996? When the sailing ship Glenlee was being prepared for refurbishing in Glasgow as a museum exhibit/ tourist/ conference centre etc( splendidly done i may add), She had in her last years been a Spanish Naval training vessel, At the front up at the bow was a small maintenance shop,in which was a 8" centre height lathe continental (make unknown) Circa 1890, The front legs, had a built in electric motor,of strange shape- this machine was subsequently scrapped, as although it was offered to the local museums nobody considered it worthy of saving!
If one can get The Engineer for 1914 First 6 months from memory, there is a series of fine articles on electrifying machine tools, some pretty crude & hairy, others not bad.
In the post 1914-18 war, Messrs John Lang & Co of Johnstone made a corporate decision to concentrate on manufacturing only geared head machines, unless a customer specifically requested a cone drive machine, This had one exception their brass finishers lathes were made as cone drive, and occasional special machines were like the brass lathes belt driven
This policy resulted in the production of big square headstock lathes with a bank of levers on the front for the various speed changes Then later a most able and talented designer employed by them called William Mcfarlane, designed the speed layout system, which resulted in the most handsome swept headstock, one of extremely elegant design, which ended up in every corner of the globe - virtually became their trade mark, a most powerful and efficient lathe, In a previous post some time ago i noticed one still in York Railway Museum, which i was priveledged to be able to see some years ago when shown round their workshop.
John Lang & Son became part of The British Associated Machine Tool Manufacturing Association.
Some firms retained flat belt drives till pretty recent times, My own Denham of Halifax 6" stroke slotting machine was a last war machine, with flat belt drive And the Denbigh Engineering Co of Birmingham/ Cradley Heath?
(-Cant remember exact place ) Were still making 4 step flat belt cone drive drilling machines of 1 1/4" drill capacity till their closing down in 1970.
Loco guy, fascinated to hear of a machine by Harvey of glasgow, in your area, can you give me any more detail of your machine, is it a lathe or horizontal drilling machine perhaps?
This works closed down about 1975, At that time i paid a visit to the companies head office at Lyndoch Street Glasgow, In a most prosperous and leafy tree lined location From about 1939, they were part of a conglomeration called The Scottish Machine Tool Corporation S.M.T. Maybe keeping a large directorate in a posh office finished them off !
Dont confuse this name with a modern company making machine tools called S.M.T. Pullmax, who i understand are possibly Swedish.
When i visited S.M.T. before the demise in Glasgow, i had a discussion with Mr Gardner the technical director, I think all the records may have gone to the local archives i will try and find out if you wish

Asquith,

On several occasions you have mentioned Craven Brothers lathes. I came across these photos recently of the foundations for one of these. Unfortunately there is no photo of the installed lathe, but from the size of the foundations it would seem to have been a bit outside the usual HSM size range.

http://naa12.naa.gov.au/scripts/PhotoSearchItemDetail.asp?M=0&B=9240894&SE=1

http://naa12.naa.gov.au/scripts/PhotoSearchItemDetail.asp?M=0&B=9240895&SE=1

http://naa12.naa.gov.au/scripts/PhotoSearchItemDetail.asp?M=0&B=9240896&SE=1

http://naa12.naa.gov.au/scripts/PhotoSearchItemDetail.asp?M=0&B=9240897&SE=1

The photos are from the Picture Australia collection.

franco

Franco,

Unfortunately the link had expired. I did find the pictures by going to the search page and searching for craven lathe:-

http://naa12.naa.gov.au/scripts/PhotoSearchSearch.asp

It must have been of the large persuasion, and presumably one of the last they built.

Looking at the long machines in the background, I assume it was a marine engineering shop. Garden Island?

Asquith,

Sorry about that - I did not realize there was a time limit on the links - I have not come across links which die in a couple of hours before.

There is nothing to indicate where the lathe was installed, but Garden Island Dock or Cockatoo dock would both be possibilities.

To see the photos go to:

http://www.pictureaustralia.org/

and enter "Lathe" in the search window. The photos are on page 19 of the search results.

franco

Franco,

I’ve had a quick rummage and came across three photos featuring Thomas Shanks machines in Sydney. From the varied nature of the work, I think it’s most likely Cockatoo Yard, because I think it was owned by Vickers, and machining cement kilns and naval work in one shop would have been their sort of business.

http://naa12.naa.gov.au/scripts/PhotoSearchItemDetail.asp?M=0&B=7951553&SE=1

http://naa12.naa.gov.au/scripts/PhotoSearchItemDetail.asp?M=0&B=7465053&SE=1

http://naa12.naa.gov.au/scripts/PhotoSearchItemDetail.asp?M=0&B=7465072&SE=1