New to me South Bend 13, cleanup and reassemble

Hi everyone,

This past September I came across a South Bend 13 down in the Milwaukee, WI area that was what I was looking for. As it always seems to go there's some backstory here - feel free to hop ahead a few paragraphs for the meat of this post. I've been slowly accumulating metalworking machines over the past 8 years. I had been looking for a South Bend (really a heavy 10) for several years, but had poor luck finding anything reasonably priced in my area. When this "deal" showed up I grabbed a moving truck and headed down to do a quick inspection. The machine was un-powered in a warehouse, but I wiggled things around and nothing stuck out too badly at the time.

The lathe is a 5ft bed version - I had anticipated it being shorter based upon the sellers description. This becomes important as when loading the lathe it no longer fit "east-west" but had to be placed "north-south" in the truck. As these things go, my original plan to rig the lathe from the truck didn't work due to it's new orientation and as the deadline for return of the rental truck loomed we pushed ahead knowing we were at the limits of our equipment (reach, weight, etc). I'll spare all the details but I learned what the 'south-end' of my South Bend looked like that day. The good news here is everyone stayed out of harms way, the lathe was cushioned by ripping the carriage door off my shop and no damage was done to the machine.

I've since been cleaning, lubing and repairing where necessary as I re-assemble the lathe. This isn't a tear-down resto like the awesome work bradjacob shows in his "South Bend 13 Restoration". Instead my goal is to make the machine functional and operational, but fix things that require attention.



It will take a me a few days to get all the pics uploaded and catch you up to where I'm currently at. Hopefully I'll get enough time over the next week to upload everything.

Have a great week - Panz

Looking forward to the updates.
Big risk buying a machine that not only can't be run under power, but in pieces as well. Did the same with my 9A, but the price was cheap, and fortunately there were no surprises and the teardown/re-build went well.

Still, the machine needs to be disassembled and all the wicks replaced just to be "operational", correct?

My 13", also a 5 footer, made it into the garage shop in one piece. Spliced in a long cord to my rotary converter, wiped down with some diesel, oiled around, and threw the switch. Other than getting the taper attachment sheet metal cover from Ted, I haven't changed anything. Bearings don't get warm, so haven't even messed with them. Paint's not much to look at, but that doesn't make parts better.

John

Alrighty... onward.

After tearing the machine down and loading the parts into my shop. I started cleaning the bed casting, UMD, and other large parts. This consisted of scraping the felt/grease goo off the parts and spraying with WD-40 or mineral spirits and a brass brush or scrubbie.

There is the classic wear ridge on the front way, with a feeler gauge we're in the 4-6 thousands range. The seller claimed this machine came from a maintenance department in Hein Warner or another large manufacturing plan that departed Milwaukee (MKE). Judging by the quantity of copper chips - I'd predict they ran alot of small diameter parts. I was going to go ahead and run the carriage brake test (to see how far down the bed we'd make it), but no stop... it disappeared somewhere in the last 60 years. We'll add that to the to-do list.



I popped both plugs out of the motor and expected to see some grease in the housing - not so, bone dry. So I pumped quite a bit of NLGI-2 into both housings until they ran through the bottom plug. The motor spins free, who knows how much rust or other problems are inside those bearings - at least with some lube they have a chance of running a while. If they get too hot when running I'll go ahead and replace them.



It appears I've hit my attachment limit for the message. Apologies for the sideways pictures, I'll get them straightened out for the next posts.

Things that slide

After cleaning the carriage I realized I didn't take a single picture of it while it was on my workbench. Overall things were in decent shape. The compound is "tight" when moving away from the center-line of the lathe and very smooth heading toward it. Seems a little strange, but likely just a gib adjustment. The cross-feed is in moderate condition for a lathe this age, there is around 40-thou of backlash. That's about on-par for any SB 13 I've had the opportunity to run.



All the felt ways wipers have turned into hard black dust. I started replacing these on the carriage and bought a 1/4" sheet of F-3 felt to cut my own parts as I needed them.



They certainly aren't as pretty as the die cut variety, but I'm sure they'll do the job. They soak up a surprising quantity of oil, but it takes a while to get them fully saturated.

Accessories and headstock

A micrometer carriage stop was included on the machine. Overall it's pretty grimy and semi-locked up. I've gone through a few cycles of flooding it with solvent and attempting to free the chips, then oiling and working it back and forth however I expected more travel. I can hit a definite stop on one end - the other end just gets tighter and tighter. Any suggestions from other people that have had issues with their micrometer stop would be appreciated. In the picture it's "all the way" to the stop. The line of corrosion indicates the overall travel before it gets too hard to turn.



Onto the headstock. In the before picture you can tell they ran this machine in full speed mode only as the other two belt positions are semi-corroded. And this makes sense given the machine was covered in copper chips. Seems an odd machine choice to run small diameter copper items on. [sidebar - I forgot to mention this machine came with a hand-wheel collet chuck and a bin full of Hardinge collets. They are all corroded except the 1/2" diameter, thus I assume they ran some amount of production on 1/2" copper]



After I started running through all the functions of the headstock I realized the backgear would sometimes interfere with the smallest diameter cone pulley (big back gear on the quill behind the spindle). Measuring run-out on the outter-most periphery of the gear I found 20 thou of runout... In the picture below you can see the large bull-gear interfere with the cone pulley. Time to start following the problem to the source. The gear blank was machined on the gear faces perpendicular to the teeth, so I'd really expect it to have a much better tolerance than 20 thou run-out. Measuring the hub I found 7 thousands of run-out.



I'll assume the shaft isn't bent as the guards around it are intact and the gear teeth themselves are in fine shape. I decided I'd need to pull the backgear quill out and see if anything was up. ...and it was. The backgear didn't just slide out as indicated in the SB maintenance guide, when I separated the eccentric shaft the inside of the quill was bone dry with damage to match.



Here you can see scoring on the small gear side of the quill shaft, note that it's worn the shaft oblong. Almost no wear [0.0005"] was noticed on the large gear side... guess that's where my runout is coming from.

Here are measurements of the shaft:



I assume the bore of the quill is similarly worn to the shaft. After an e-mail to Grizzly, er' South Bend, I found they have no stock, nor will they be able to supply the shaft for the backgear quill. The quill carrying the backgears is available for $261.10. I'm not sure what I expected those parts to cost, but I suppose that's in the ballpark.

My current thought is I'll re-create the backgear shaft out of stressproof steel. I'm not so sure how to handle the quill - what I really need to do is get in there with a bore gauge and see where it's at, but that doesn't really tell me how poor of a bearing surface it now is. I think it'd be reasonable to indicate each end to center and bore for a press-fit sleeve on the quill. However as the assembly was built-up of 3 tubes, the large diameter tube appears very much off center with the two shaft stubs the backgears ride on.

Any suggestions, comments or experience you can offer would be appreciated.

Thanks!

Panz said:

Here are measurements of the shaft:

View attachment 162226

I assume the bore of the quill is similarly worn to the shaft. After an e-mail to Grizzly, er' South Bend, I found they have no stock, nor will they be able to supply the shaft for the backgear quill. The quill carrying the backgears is available for $261.10. I'm not sure what I expected those parts to cost, but I suppose that's in the ballpark.

My current thought is I'll re-create the backgear shaft out of stressproof steel. I'm not so sure how to handle the quill - what I really need to do is get in there with a bore gauge and see where it's at, but that doesn't really tell me how poor of a bearing surface it now is. I think it'd be reasonable to indicate each end to center and bore for a press-fit sleeve on the quill. However as the assembly was built-up of 3 tubes, the large diameter tube appears very much off center with the two shaft stubs the backgears ride on.

Any suggestions, comments or experience you can offer would be appreciated.

Thanks!

Click to expand...

I have the parts you need.
And me an email.
Ted
[email protected]

Not familiar with the 13- but looks like those bearing caps over the spindle are easily removed.
Have you done this, to check for spindle scoring/bearing wear?

Seems that was a heavily used machine, that may not have received the maintenance it should have. Spindle/bearing condition and spindle runout would be one of the first things I'd check out- before getting into more minor "details". JMO...

So much for not doing a resto ;-)

I popped the drain/fill plugs from the headstock to drain the oil, flush and refill. Everything looked ok on the change-gear drive end. The spindle side drain allowed only a tiny trickle with plenty in the oiler. Instead of flushing with kerosene I used mineral spirits (yep I know it'll remove all the oil from the assembly) and only the top port communicated with the oiler - the passage to the lower "sump" is clogged.

Heeding the advise of several friends and tobnpr (above) I decided to dig deeper into the spindle assembly. I ran through the correct procedure of pulling the bearing retainer screws out ahead of unbolting the caps. I expected to really need to give the large cap screws a whack to get it apart... instead they weren't even finger tight.



I think it's coming together now. The oil that was run in the head was some rather heavy hydraulic oil, nothing like the official "A" oil. They had only run this machine at the highest speed and I'm betting they had issues with the head running hot so they cracked all the spindle caps loose to limp it along. At this point I expected disaster on the spindle bearings, but as South Bend said "any oil is better than no oil".



I spun the spindle through a revolution and peered through the bearing keeper slot - so far everything looks good. There's alot of "tar" buildup everywhere - but no evidence of galling or major spindle issues. I'll post some photos of the spindle after I yank it out. I noticed two stampings on the main spindle casting: "XXSH" and "206". Googling didn't get me any immediate hits.



At this point I've ordered the full felt kit/restoration guide as I figured I'm sure to run into something else needing attention. [I think the apron seal is gone as there's a little puddle under the carriage on my shop floor.] Hopefully we'll start trending in the re-assembly direction here as my backlog of woodworking and metal projects seems to be ever growing.

Panz said:

Hi everyone,

This past September I came across a South Bend 13 down in the Milwaukee, WI area that was what I was looking for. As it always seems to go there's some backstory here - feel free to hop ahead a few paragraphs for the meat of this post. I've been slowly accumulating metalworking machines over the past 8 years. I had been looking for a South Bend (really a heavy 10) for several years, but had poor luck finding anything reasonably priced in my area. When this "deal" showed up I grabbed a moving truck and headed down to do a quick inspection. The machine was un-powered in a warehouse, but I wiggled things around and nothing stuck out too badly at the time.

The lathe is a 5ft bed version - I had anticipated it being shorter based upon the sellers description. This becomes important as when loading the lathe it no longer fit "east-west" but had to be placed "north-south" in the truck. As these things go, my original plan to rig the lathe from the truck didn't work due to it's new orientation and as the deadline for return of the rental truck loomed we pushed ahead knowing we were at the limits of our equipment (reach, weight, etc). I'll spare all the details but I learned what the 'south-end' of my South Bend looked like that day. The good news here is everyone stayed out of harms way, the lathe was cushioned by ripping the carriage door off my shop and no damage was done to the machine.

I've since been cleaning, lubing and repairing where necessary as I re-assemble the lathe. This isn't a tear-down resto like the awesome work bradjacob shows in his "South Bend 13 Restoration". Instead my goal is to make the machine functional and operational, but fix things that require attention.

View attachment 161865View attachment 161866View attachment 161867

It will take a me a few days to get all the pics uploaded and catch you up to where I'm currently at. Hopefully I'll get enough time over the next week to upload everything.

Have a great week - Panz

Click to expand...

Panz,

Thanks for the kind words. ANY cleanup or love given to these machines is a worthy task. Glad to see another 13 being put back into service. Excellent!

Hi Panz I to just purchased a SB 13'' a few months ago. I am doing the same thing as you are. disassemble,clean,replace broken stuff,rewick,lube, reassemble. I cant read all the info on your motor nameplate but it appears the same as mine. HP,rpm and manufacturer are anyway. This thing was filthy and I've got the motor out of it now. May replace it but will probably service it and run it til it drops. seemed to me a 3/4--1.5 hp motor would be on the small side for a lathe this size so its interesting to me to see yours is the same size. Low rpm-- Mine has a D1-4 spindle that seems tight and turns smooth so I dont think I'll remove the bearing caps now but it prob wont be long. I got the rebuild book with kit. Book was well worth the $ to me. I will follow your thread and I'm sure learn more. thanks skate

Mine came with a 1hp 3 phase motor . Motor needed bearings and I didn't have a VFD , so as a temporary measure I installed a 1hp 110V IR motor . It does not reverse , but it sure pulls . It will slip the double V belts before it stalls , so I think 1hp is probably enough .

Hi peter j That is good to know. This original motor is so big and heavy for a 1.5 hp I may replace it anyway. I may just put a single phase on it. Is the motor you're using now 1750 rpm? Thanks

Get an Allen bradley 1300 series vfd from eBay for about 200 bucks.

Get a 2 hp version and download the manual so you can confirm exact model.

You get variable speed soft start and reverse.

skate1 said:

Hi peter j That is good to know. This original motor is so big and heavy for a 1.5 hp I may replace it anyway. I may just put a single phase on it. Is the motor you're using now 1750 rpm? Thanks

Click to expand...

Yes , it's 1725 rpm , so the speeds are same as stock .

Spindle tear down

My ILION felt kit arrived with resto guide. I picked up a few helpful hints from the guide - mostly it helps you know where all those drive and taper pins are hiding under layers of paint.

I had very much hoped I'd be able to pop the spindle out, clean up a few things, and get rolling again. Time to change plans. The felts were a struggle to get out, basically glued themselves to the bottom of the oil sump. When they finally let go they brought along with them a brown oil skin.



The outside thrust bearing was in poor, but possibly running condition (worst case I could pop scored balls out of the cage and replace them). The inboard thrust bearing is completely thrashed - races are badly scored, the cage has torn itself apart, etc...



So... where does one get a set of thrust bearings from? I perused old threads, and it appears these are not inch standard parts. I shot an e-mail off to the "official" South Bend guys to see what they come back with. The only post I saw related to bearing cost was that Logan wanted $160 ea for these bearings back when they carried the product line. I'll be looking for a less expensive option if that's really the case. I'll ping Ted as well to see what's available in the used market.

If the two above options don't pan out - what other options are available? As it turns out the ID measurements are very close to 48.0mm - and it appears some Subarus run 48mm cranks, and thus may have a 48mm thrust bearing in the clutch.

Here are my measurements for the outboard (change gear side) and inboard (nearest inner left-hand side of headstock) thrust bearings. My are worn (severely) so let me know if I'm under on any dimensions.

Outboard
ID: 1.883"
OD: 2.563"
thick: 0.372"
Washer 1: 0.125"
Washer 2: 0.125"

Inboard
ID: 1.882"
OD: 2.563"
thick: 0.475"
Washer 1: 0.180"
Washer 2: 0.180"

Skate1, here's a close up of my motor nameplate. I have a 2Hp 3 phase drive I use for my mill. My plan is to add a twist lock disconnect to swap between machines as I won't ever run both at the same time.



Good luck on your SB13, hopefully you have less parts to replace than I do.

Hi Panz Thanks for the nameplate closeup. It appears mine is the same type but 224 frame so mabie it is bigger than yours. It sure is heavy. I've learned they run one winding or the other over at the vfd forum. Mine has 4 contactors to handle low/high speed and reversing. I like the idea of swaping the vfd back and forth as im buying a three phase motor for my mill to use a vfd. When you take the headstock off the bed is there a special way to realign it or is it pretty much self aligning when you install it? My spindle seems good but I know I should pull it out and inspect it so prob will. Would like to disassemble it for cleaning rewicking anyway. I have had to replace the idler gear. Will be disassembling the rest so we will see what else. Thanks for the thread its helping me alot. It will be a nice lathe when you get it done. skate

Tony Thanks for the info on the vfd. I will look into it.

PeterJ Thanks for that motor info. Can you tell me how you fastened the new motor to the motor plate in the lathe? Did you have to drill new holes ect? Thanks