Die build from China?

Looking for some input from the shop owners. I'm not an owner but have been in the trade for 22 years. Most of that time has been building new tooling/stamping dies. And honestly I've really never been involved in the business side of things. I've been at my current employer for 4 years now. We are a small stamping facility of non-automotive parts. We produce quite a volume of parts here in the USA but also have parts imported from China. We just received a job that requires two, small 4 station dies to be built. I'm talking very simple dies that would take 4-5 weeks to build both by 2 tool makers. But the company has decided to have the dies built in China and have the dies air freighted back to us in order to make the time frame of 8 weeks. Boss told me the dies can be built at 1/10 of the cost to build them here. Now I've seen first hand the bad quality from China dies, and I'm not saying good quality can't come from China but not expecting it. So I guess my question is what is the drive to have a die built over seas knowing it may come back as a pos and is going to need reworked? My thinking is sure, on paper the boss can go to the owner and boast about saving the company x number of dollars on a die build. But will bury the cost of my labor associated with making the die run. Opinions, thoughts and experiences? Thanks much.

I would get a camera and document everything that's wrong with them. Otherwise it'll sound like your just blowing smoke.

Larry Dickman said:

I would get a camera and document everything that's wrong with them. Otherwise it'll sound like your just blowing smoke.

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I don't disagree but there's the potential to make the boss look like knob so if it were me I'd document it, show to boss, and if he's a knob about it file it away in case the fan gets hit later on. If he's not a knob then cool, learning experience for all. I wouldn't go above his head (almost) for sure, but every workplace is different.

I hope you're not making knobs or things could get confusing.

I wouldn't worry if it comes in like a POS.

If it shows up and it's equal or better than your own work, then I'd start getting nervous...

While still far inferior to US tooling, there is not question that Chinese tooling has improved over the years. I have fought the China battle for 15 years only to realize that some customers are going to go to China & all I can do is battle for the ones that will stay here.
I think your boss is exaggerating with the cost being 1/10 of a US built die. At least with injection molds, I find on average our shop is 30-45% higher than reputable shops in China.

Some things to be aware of when buying from China.
1. More often than not tooling needs tuning when it arrives, so budget some time/money for that.
2. You are basically buying a tool with no warranty, unless of course you are willing to send the tool back to China for a Warranty call.
3. You will pay 100% before the mold/die ever gets on the boat, so your avenue for recourse is limited.
4. Chinese will do whatever is necessary to get good samples from the tool, so they get FA approval. I have personally seen cases of China missing shrink rates for an injection mold. So they will sample from a material with a different shrink rate. Customer buys off the parts & the molds ship. Then when they sample the molds over here from the correct material, the customer cant understand why nothing is in tolerance. Dirty Pool!!
5. Even if you specify US/European tool steel, don't count on them adhering to it. In many cases their heat treat processing is also suspect.
6. They love making home made components, so good luck buying wear items & such off the shelf.
7. Maintenance costs & downtime of China tooling are generally higher.
8. What they actually build rarely matches the tool design.
9. When things go well, China can work ok. However, when things go sideways all of the sudden nobody speaks English!!

Good news is that Chinese tooling provides for plenty of repair & engineering change work.

toolmaker96 said:

While still far inferior to US tooling, there is not question that Chinese tooling has improved over the years. I have fought the China battle for 15 years only to realize that some customers are going to go to China & all I can do is battle for the ones that will stay here.
I think your boss is exaggerating with the cost being 1/10 of a US built die. At least with injection molds, I find on average our shop is 30-45% higher than reputable shops in China.

Some things to be aware of when buying from China.
1. More often than not tooling needs tuning when it arrives, so budget some time/money for that.
2. You are basically buying a tool with no warranty, unless of course you are willing to send the tool back to China for a Warranty call.
3. You will pay 100% before the mold/die ever gets on the boat, so your avenue for recourse is limited.
4. Chinese will do whatever is necessary to get good samples from the tool, so they get FA approval. I have personally seen cases of China missing shrink rates for an injection mold. So they will sample from a material with a different shrink rate. Customer buys off the parts & the molds ship. Then when they sample the molds over here from the correct material, the customer cant understand why nothing is in tolerance. Dirty Pool!!
5. Even if you specify US/European tool steel, don't count on them adhering to it. In many cases their heat treat processing is also suspect.
6. They love making home made components, so good luck buying wear items & such off the shelf.
7. Maintenance costs & downtime of China tooling are generally higher.
8. What they actually build rarely matches the tool design.
9. When things go well, China can work ok. However, when things go sideways all of the sudden nobody speaks English!!

Good news is that Chinese tooling provides for plenty of repair & engineering change work.

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Chinese molds/dies are a toss of the dice... Some are good, and some are terrible. Lots of hidden expenses, such as air freight in, if you cannot wait 6 weeks for shipping. Tearing down and cleaning off the green cosmoline can require several days labor. Non-standard components are a big issue. The best way to get tooling from China is to work with a company that has a bricks and mortar shop in the US, that offers a warranty and service. Costs a little more, but worth it...

Screwmachine said:

I don't disagree but there's the potential to make the boss look like knob so if it were me I'd document it, show to boss, and if he's a knob about it file it away in case the fan gets hit later on. If he's not a knob then cool, learning experience for all. I wouldn't go above his head (almost) for sure, but every workplace is different.

I hope you're not making knobs or things could get confusing.

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This post is very sound advice, always keep in mind that shit always rolls down hill, do not sling any over boss's head, I guarantee it will roll right back into your lap.

Of course you can get bad dies from China but you can also get good ones. I've found the best way of doing business with "China" is to personally know who you are doing business with and, if the price sounds reasonable, don't start quibbling.

Buying cheap anywhere is easy. Buying "good" at a reasonable and fair price very rarely is.

moto367 said:

Boss told me the dies can be built at 1/10 of the cost to build them here.

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That's true... that's likely what the chinaman pays to have it built. However, what they charge the customer is just a little bit less than what they think the customer will have to pay to get it built here, typically 70% or so. That's why there are so many new millionaires in China.

So I guess my question is what is the drive to have a die built over seas knowing it may come back as a pos and is going to need reworked? My thinking is sure, on paper the boss can go to the owner and boast about saving the company x number of dollars on a die build. But will bury the cost of my labor associated with making the die run..

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Because cheap prices look good and win jobs. The cost of fixing it can be plowed into the piece part cost, where no one sees it. In addition, from an accountant's view, hard tooling is a capital expense, which must be depreciated over seven years IIRC. That means the owner pays all the money up front, but only gets to expense 1/7 of it each year. The cost to FIX the damned thing, however, can be charged off as maintenance, and fully expensed in the year it's spent.

This is what happens when you let the bean counters run the shop.

Dennis

Modelman said:

That's true... that's likely what the chinaman pays to have it built. However, what they charge the customer is just a little bit less than what they think the customer will have to pay to get it built here, typically 70% or so. That's why there are so many new millionaires in China.

Dennis

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So that's the reason there is such an increase in the number of Chinese millionaires? Export?

Chinese just selling within China have a potential customer market of 1,400,000,000 while the USA has only 350,000,000.

Care to explain to me, based on your reasoning, why there are so many US millionaires?

Your talking to the trumpets, don't waste your time.

Okay, I'll bite. Why does it take 8-10 man weeks for you to build two "small, 4 station, very simple" dies? Should it really be faster to send a spec from your shop halfway around the world, get it sourced, made, shipped, received, tested, reworked and into production?

Does this Chinese shop have capabilities you don't? Maybe there isn't a CNC EDM at your shop?

Cheaper, sure, but China being faster sets off alarm bells to me.

So, suppose the OP knew that the real world choices were:

(a) Buy this cheap tooling from China and fix it up enough to do the actual run of parts before they change and the tooling is obsolete...

OR

(b) Lose the bid, the lose the contract, maybe lose the customer, start the process of going out of business and laying everybody off.

(Note that I am suspicious about the delivery time too, but....)

When I see these posts/threads about "this stuff was cheap but it's crap we have to fix" I always think about the (1.) cheap and (2.) truly crappy tooling we got from China and run in Kenya. It's very problematic. Really. And it's made more than 100 thousand units of the product, which is on a path to being economically sustainable while literally saving people's health in the mean time. And it's all we could afford, ever, in any imaginable universe. (We're now slowly moving up the food chain.)

Not every tool needs to make millions of parts.

For every part, there is some level of cost the part can bare. Saying that "well consumers should pay more" makes as much sense as saying "well I should work for less" - do YOU go pay more than you have to for anything, after accounting for quality, ease of access, etc? The end user doesn't care about the quailty of the stamping tool. They may care less than you think about the quality of the product the part goes into - it may well be (often is) "works" or "does not work". That's it, for the whole product. Some stamping off somewhere in the corner only matters when it breaks. The tool that made it is of no import unless there's a social issue like it malfunctioned and killed somebody.


Also, the comments about "bean counters" are true, but there are some related things to think about...

1. You are paid in "beans", along with the firm's suppliers, other employees, etc.

2. A great deal of screwball bean counting is driven by screwball tax law. You company going to bizarre lengths to minimize inventory? To convert capex to op expense? Etc.? Blame tax law first and foremost.

And remember folks, tax law affects the *net* profit/loss of the firm - affects whether anybody will buy stock or otherwise buy in, will lend it money, will even sell to it and often who will buy from it. So if we assume you want to be paid regular on an ongoing business, you want your firm to be efficient ON THE WHOLE which means net of taxes.

Now, of course, "the boss" may have bought some absolute shit. And that may work out, because they may (or may not) be able to get a contract in the door, somehow figure out a way to keep it, and even grow it over time. They may also shoot themselves in the foot. Sometimes both....

Comatose said:

Okay, I'll bite. Why does it take 8-10 man weeks for you to build two "small, 4 station, very simple" dies? Should it really be faster to send a spec from your shop halfway around the world, get it sourced, made, shipped, received, tested, reworked and into production?

Does this Chinese shop have capabilities you don't? Maybe there isn't a CNC EDM at your shop?

Cheaper, sure, but China being faster sets off alarm bells to me.

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China can build tools in a hurry... I was involved with a large complex mold, customer placed the order, then demanded a much faster delivery.. Cost a lot in rush fees, but they built, sampled and shipped the mold in about a month. Many Chinese shops are big, around the clock operations. They can throw a lot of people at a project.

Time is the new currency. The way these Asian countries land these jobs is by combining slight cost savings with real time savings.

I don't know about China, but I remember sourcing stamping dies from Korea. These were large dies involving investment casting the die and machining the net shape. Trim dies had hardened inserts. Big stuff, 20+ tons.

Korea could build it, run a trial, pack it, and send it on a 2 week ocean voyage in a little less time than we would take to make a similar die in the USA.

Having direct experience in this area...

1.) I would only be comfortable working with a tool & die maker that the company I worked for has developed to ensure that they are going to comply with general tool and die principles we use in the states.
2.) If number one isn't established, certainly don't expect it to go well on the first round or meet deadline.

Our procurement boss thought he was badass and bought us a die from overseas for 1/3 the price. The first parts provided were hand made from laser cut blanks. I rejected the samples. The second set that came with the die were stamped but not progressively though the die. Individually formed at the stations.

We received the die. The shoe was crap, many of the die spring holes were non standard and the company OD ground springs to fit the holes. Shear clearances were shot. Burr city. Soft sections everywhere with horrible die work. Die would not run on its own in progressive manner. What came off die was no where near to print. We had to throw the die out.

This was with one of the bigger stamping outfits in Ohio.

Walk lightly and document well. Load up all the terms you can get.

Comatose said:

Why does it take 8-10 man weeks for you to build two "small, 4 station, very simple" dies?

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Valid question. Mainly becaus I'm pretty much the only tool maker the company has. So on top of building the simple dies I also have to attend to any issues that may arise on production tooling.

Thanks for all the replies. I guess what I'm getting out of the responses is that there is a tax incentive somewhere. I found out Friday that my boss decided to send to the shop (in China) all the punches, pilots, die pins and bushings so the build would be to more of our standards. I'm certain the shop will take the time to order standard size tooling to machine details, unless they have a wire machine. I'm not holding my breath. This is going to be interesting to say the least. Kind of frustrating but I guess I have to roll with it. And I will document everything.

You are going to have to visit the tool being built so add that to the cost or you will be sorry you didn't take the time to watch it thru from strip lay out to run off and p pap


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I do some business with China on occasion and I have the same reservations as the "critical" members. If your boss has made the decision because "cheap and fast" are the main motives then it will probably be neither UNLESS YOU KNOW THE SUPPLIER FROM EXPERIENCE.

Good luck and from what I have read so far you'll need a good bit of luck. As already suggested you should take a week or so in China to talk to those that matter. Personal relationships can make a world of difference.

The big problem with China today...they "Can" produce excellent quality product at a reasonably inexpensive price with quick turnarounds...even when you account for shipping cost and time.

Down side is finding those quality houses.
I have two companies I work for that have product made in China...one company almost lost the business as the samples where perfect so wired funds to run the order...but the order came in late and totally unusable. They lost the money paid to China, had no product to sell and the worst...they lost sales as the item was a complimentary item to their own in-house product that was somewhat useless without the China part.
They scrambled and made it thru...found a better China source and now the product comes in perfectly to spec, on time and they have a great margin on it. Funny part...they wanted to keep production in the States...big companies were not interested in their somewhat small runs and smaller companies did not want the monotonous production work and would take on "Fun, One off jobs" that screwed up production schedules. He looked for a good long time before settling into China.
2nd company did not want to go overseas. Buyer handed me their price sheet from China along with quantities and sample parts then asked me
what items I could meet or beat...or even come sorta close to. A handful of items I could not even purchase and prep materials for the cost of an assembled and packaged part from China. Some we beat in price and delivery...but lower quantity specials. Others I found ways with blanket orders to get close enough that they kept us on as the preferred vendor. What bothered me most...I could not find a bad part, bad finish, not a poorly packed box of product.