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10L - To rebuild or not to rebuild? That is the question. Whether it is nobler to ...

Zahnrad Kopf

Diamond
Joined
Apr 5, 2010
Location
Tropic of Milwaukee
To rebuild or not to rebuild? That is the question.

I have a threaded spindle Heavy 10 sitting on a tube leg cabinet that I am going to be selling shortly. It is in good, but used shape. It works well enough, cuts accurately, but does need some love in the form of a cross slide nut ( or nut and screw ) and a few minor things that I never bothered with because I got along fine with it for the last 20+ years.

It has the typical accessories and attachments. 3 jaw, 4 jaw, face plates, steady rest, collet nose, hand wheel and lever closers, taper attachment, etc...

My question is one of whether or not it is financially worth actually rebuilding it, simply to sell it. By rebuild, I mean disassemble it fully, clean it, grind and scrape the pertinent surfaces, paint, and reassemble with the typical considerations of wicks and bearings, etc...

What is a ballpark estimate of the selling value of one in used condition versus one in truely rebuilt condition? Is it even worth doing all of that just to sell it?

Thanks.
 
My two cents...the person that would be a potential customer for that particular type of lathe may understand a 'true rebuild' but would cringe at the asking price for a machine receiving such a rebuild. Sell it 'as is'!

Stuart
 
If you wanted to fix the cross slide screw first, I think you could increase your sale price by the cost of the parts, and use it as a selling point. But, you will never recoup the cost of a real rebuild on a 10L. I would probably sell as-is, where is.

allan
 
My two cents...the person that would be a potential customer for that particular type of lathe may understand a 'true rebuild' but would cringe at the asking price for a machine receiving such a rebuild. Sell it 'as is'!
Stuart

Atomarc - Okay. So you don't think that many people would pony up the funds for a rebuilt and recon'd 10L with kit. But that still leaves my question -


What is a ballpark estimate of the selling value of one in used condition versus one in truely rebuilt condition?
 
That is a hard question to answer actually. There are so many factors.

Long bed?
Wide range gear box?
Hardened bed?
Age
Location

I paid $1400 for my short bed with non hardened bed and counted myself lucky. People tend to ask $2000-$2500 around here for something similar. They don't pop up in my part of the country often. I'd think after overhauling you'd be lucky to get $3000 -$3500 as above that you're getting into hlvh and 10ee territory.

I imagine back east everything is cheaper so even less to be gained from an overhaul.

Teryk
 
It deserves the new cross nut as a quick fix then 1000 to $2500, rebuilt perhaps $4k tops.

I would not think $4k with not having a metric gear, steady and at least one good chuck. IMHO... actually for that price add a collect bar and set.

Sorry I missed you when you were in town.. waiting for a call but did not check my in bok.
 
That is a hard question to answer actually. There are so many factors.
Long bed?
Wide range gear box?
Hardened bed?
Age
Location
I paid $1400 for my short bed with non hardened bed and counted myself lucky. People tend to ask $2000-$2500 around here for something similar. They don't pop up in my part of the country often. I'd think after overhauling you'd be lucky to get $3000 -$3500 as above that you're getting into hlvh and 10ee territory.
I imagine back east everything is cheaper so even less to be gained from an overhaul.
Teryk

Terryk - Good points. Thank you for pointing them out. To answer you -

Long bed, double tumbler box, not flame hardened, don't recall the age but can check ( believe early 50's ), located in Tropical Milwaukee, Wisconsin.

It deserves the new cross nut as a quick fix then 1000 to $2500, rebuilt perhaps $4k tops.
I would not think $4k with not having a metric gear, steady and at least one good chuck. IMHO... actually for that price add a collect bar and set. Sorry I missed you when you were in town.. waiting for a call but did not check my in bok.

Michiganbuck - Oops. Forgot. Yes, of course I have made the Metric Gears for it. :) Also made many others for it, as well as new reverse tumbler gears with bearings installed. Have both collet closers, steady, and a few chucks. The 3 jaw being an adjust-tru.

Yes, I also regret not being able to meet up for lunch while we were there grabbing the Monarch. We will get together for burgers and such another time. :) Thank you for the info back then, though!
 
That's an above average set of tooling, in a place with a medium number of lathes available. I'd start at $2500, and be prepared to drop to $2000.

allan
 
Thanks for the input, Allan.

Just looked up the year - Looks to be 1956. ( 7983RKL14 ) I seem to recall getting a serial card at some point but it has been long enough that I don't recall with any certainty.
 
I don't think you would ever get the time you would need to invest in a recondition, although most any buyer will be glad to pay for the kit/parts, that is very minimal.

In the case of the cross slide nut, that shouldn't cost you very much and you might even be able to make that yourself, so that seems to make sense.

The problem with the used SB market is that there's a lot of buyers that would gladly pay $2k-$3k for a refurbished machine, but few people have the skills to do it in a reasonable amount of time and would need to ask $5k-$6k. That's why I see it as a loosing proposition. Very hard to sell a used SB for $5k-$6k, even if it was perfect.

Reconditioning a machine only makes sense to the owner, IMO, as it's mostly time. In the same light, you probably wouldn't be in a position to send your Monarch off to Monarch to have it reconditioned, but probably can do much of it yourself and end up with an XLNT machine that you'll keep for a long long time. :)
 
This one for sale by me...
10L, completely rebuilt (200+ hours per the ad) with taper attachment, QC toolpost (inexpensive one), and apparently no other tooling that the 3-jaw. But it does have the Flame-Hardened bed.

Asking 3,450- and it's been on CL for a couple of months at least, at that price.

https://tampa.craigslist.org/hdo/tls/5267210220.html
 
This one for sale by me...

That would be a perfect machine for what you want to do. ;)

He's a bit high, but not too much. Problem is he's in Florida. There are other places where that probably would have been sold long ago...does have a toggle clutch, large dials...but the belt...still a pretty desirable machine, IMO, to the right buyer.

Alan
 
What's your time worth?

Your real question is about the laws of diminishing returns. The more time
and money you spend on the machine, the less you profit when you sell.

Also folks who buy these machines look at them to some degree as a project.

I would clean and repair all the obvious faults, and then list as-is.

No extensive painting, nothing major in terms of re-building.

Lathe like that, once you're into it, is never done. Always something more to do!
 
There is no way you can rebuild any of these machines "properly" and recoup your costs. A total rebuild to "as new" specifications will cost you thousands in time and materials. A new Heavy 10 last sold north of $10,000 from the factory. That would be your goal. And if you achieved it (unlikely) you'd be justified in asking $10,000 as a selling price. Chances of anybody taking that offer? Nil!!

Now, if you want to rebuild it to new specs because that's what you like to do, then by all means have a go at it. But you will never make any money at it and you'll probably lose big hunks of change. As we used to say in the car business, "cubic dollars."
 
Is the point of not rebuilding this machine to sell at a small margin of profit outweighed but the fact that you could buy a chinese lathe for that amount give or take?

I understand that many guys buying these machine are hobby/enthusiast.

But if you really want to buy the machine to make quality parts I am lost on the point of buying a machine that is worn out and needs a rebuild? Everybody here is saying not to put any money into it.

Putting a paint job on the machine will make it look nice but it will not operate any better.

I a not a expert by any means on the market prices on these machines, but from what I have seen here is after regrind of the ways, new screw, a couple new gears, test cuts to qualify size you are not able to draw $7,500 - $9,995?

I understand the "new" machine are no where near the quality of this old iron?
 
I got my SB 13" D1-4 camlock spindle, hardened bed, taper attachment and KDK QC tool post plus lots of tooling for around $2,200 (came with a BP and the mill tooling, so hard to appropriate the costs).

The paint is wore out crap, but the lathe is mechanically very good.

Pretty sure you can't get your $$$ back, even with the 10L mystic.

John
 
Not worth it, for a rebuild, no way.

And, imo, ime, a new, larger chinese machine, much heavier and much more rigid, will cut better, faster, and with zero issues.
The bigger chicom machines are actually pretty good.

My experience has been mass/length tells you how good it is.
A good light-industrial 12x chinese machine starts at about 30000€, == 3500$.
Its about the same or more mass , more rigidity, and same power.
Castings have a large section size, ie bed is deeper, wider, etc.

That, after all, is why south bend is not making them any more.

South Bend original = better than a 9x chicom machine. Much better.
South bend original = less than a heavy chicom 12x-13x machine.
The chinese machines exist in heavy and light versions.

So, its actually the bigger chinese machines that set the ceiling on the price.


I´m not debating the quality issue, as such, just pointing out why most users will not buy old lathes for more than about 3500 $.
And, as was pointed out, bigger old 13x lathes can be had for 2200-3500.
The extra tooling re: collets and levers adds a lot of value (1000$ or so) - but most buyers dont or wont see it.

No question that fit and finish and feel is less on the chinese machines, ime.
Its just that financially, the old machines have a ceiling value, and buyers willing to spend a significant premium are really rare.

And, for about 5000-6000$ you start to get a Monarch, or Hardinge or clone (Sharp, Feeler), although harder to find.
 
To rebuild or not to rebuild....hmmm I guess it depends on one thing, Money $$. If you got it you will pay anything to get it rebuilt. A few weeks back I got an email from a guy who said his Dad had passed and he had a South Bend 9A 4.5 foot bed he inherited and he wanted it rebuilt and money was no problem, he wanted to make it better then perfect.

I didn't see the email for a couple of days because i was traveling over to Germany. He said he heard I was the "scraping man"..lol or something like that. I finally wrote back and suggested he contact a former student of mine, Phil Perry, who rebuilds machines for rich folks. He wrote back saying he had already saw his info on the net and contacted him as he had got impatient when I had not written back.

Must have been 25 years ago I held a few scraping classes in my pole barn shop out behind my house and Phil somehow heard of it and drove over as he lived in Roberts WI about 40 miles from here. At the time he seem like an above average intelligent young man in his middle to late 30's. He had a sore arm but picked up hand scraping super fast. After the class he invited me over to see his shop and advise him on rebuilding his Sheldon Lathe (I think that's what it was as after a while they all look the same, lol).

He was living in a mobile home with his wife and family of 2 or 3 kids....he had build an attached shop next to the trailer and in there he had all these small watch maker mills, and lathes plus the Sheldon and his pride and joy a Bridgeport 2 that had it's own small room all by it's self...it was to big to fit the first shed, so he built another attached shed around it. Was a cute but a bit odd set up...lol Then he showed me the Sheldon, I suggest he take the bed to a friend of mine, Rick at A&D rebuilding who was in Roberts...Phil had not known about him...anyway he rebuilt his lathe after Rick had milled the bed. Phil told me how he was a PHD in Physics and got sick of working for Univac several years back and taught himself to repair watches.

He was repairing watches now for Dayton Hudson Jewelers plus making projects in his shop and repaired dial indicators. I had my tools with and I had a Inter-rapid that would stick and gave it to him. About a week later he mailed it back in like new condition.

I lost track of him and a few years later I tracked him down and he had moved to Kansas where he got a super deal on a brick house and shop out in the middle of no-where from an ad he saw on United Country Reality. He said he paid the back taxes and a small fee to the local bank and moved there. Then in 2013 I heard about a Gold Plated Lathe on the net and the more I heard about it...I checked it out and hell Phil had rebuilt it down at his shop in Kansas.

I called him and he told me he started to rebuild lathes for rich people who would pay for the best job possible and money was no concern. He told me since he and I had last talked his kids were grown and he had spent a few years being a machinist in the US Embassy in Moscow. I asked him what he did there and he said he would have to kill me if he told me...lol...

Anyway Phil now has the South bend lathe and I suppose a few others. By the time I got back to the guy with the mill he had tracked down Phil on his own. So Z man..how much money do you have? and how bad do you want a cherry machine just sitting in your living room or lobby just to admire it? Rich

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...model-9-lathe-masterpiece-restoration-275490/
 
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