120V Motor Suggestions - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    SB typically used 5L belts on the smaller machines, B should be fine too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iwananew10K View Post
    SB typically used 5L belts on the smaller machines, B should be fine too.
    Downside is that a "B" section doesn't like smallest-diameter pulley much under about 4 1/2".

    Flat belt or PolyVee / MicroVee AKA "serpentine", are much better players if you have to drop to 3" or less.

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    So is this an A or B belt and pulley, my measurements seem to fall in between... also, I will have to work out the math on the small pulley size. It seems that pulleys are measured by outside diameter. I can measue mine and then multiply by about 1.75 to gain the higher speeds, (because the VFD will still give me the low speeds too).

    Not looking to go nuts with this. Just turn some parts for projects.

    BTW I found this info: (mentions RPM's with the single and double pulley heavy tens)

    http://www.lathes.co.uk/southbend/page4.html

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    The lathes site is great but Tony manages a HUGE database and sometimes erroneous info slips through,

    here is the scan concerning your machine- courtesy of Steve Wells, particularly pg 11 and 19 relate to your machine.
    http://www.wswells.com/data/catalog/...talog_100C.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlyinChip View Post
    So is this an A or B belt and pulley, my measurements seem to fall in between... [also, I will have to work out the math on the small pulley size. It seems that pulleys are measured by outside diameter. I can measue mine and then multiply by about 1.75 to gain the higher speeds, (because the VFD will still give me the low speeds too).
    You do not want a "B" section belt. Too stiff.

    Pulleys are best measured at a "pitch" line, which is a tad below the back cover of the belt.

    It doesn't matter - you should be using store-bought pulleys, not re-inventing the whole Vee-belt world, so stock sizes that are "close" will be good enough.

    No point in trying to change the ratios of the crowned flat-belt pulleys.

    Dead-easy to alter and/or ADD TO the choice of ratios at the input side of the countershaft. Ex: three choices, motor to countershaft, are not hard to implement instead of two or just one.

    So long as any SB has all its OEM ratios, I don't see any pressing need for a VFD. The steps or gaps just aren't that far apart.

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    OK so it's an "A belt" then.

    I'll get an A pulley about twice the current diameter because I can back it down with the VFD.

    As to what motor, I asked a couple friends and look on CL all the time even surrounding areas for a cheap 1ph 1725rpm motor, and not much comes up. When it does, they are old and like $75 or $100 bucks. For $235 to my door I can have a brandy new 1HP 3 phase, sealed cast iron motor with the VFD.

    May just have to wait a couple weeks until the CFO says "ok"!

    As you said "3-P motors, OTOH, only thing "perishable" are the windings, which almost never die. And bearings, which last silly-long times, too. Hundred year item, a decent 3-P motor can be. NONE of the rest of that 1-P baggage to go wrong."

  8. #47
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    That's pretty much the opposite of what you want to do.

    Use the Vfd to get your higher speeds...in simple terms horsepower remains constant above 60hz and falls off linearly below 60hz.

    and use a 5L belt...4L will bottom out in the V

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    What is the opposite? I was thinking the 1HP 1800RPM motor / VFD with double the motor pulley (the one on there now is tiny). That gets me more belt grip area, less tight radius the belt has to wrap around, and increases the top turning speed if needed. That's my thinking anyway. EDIT, are u saying run the 1800rpm motor faster with higher frequency? How far can I go with the FM50 VFD and that motor I wonder?

    As to the vee belt, I had no idea it was that involved. But here is a comparison of 4L 5L vs A and B belt and what can be interchanged with what.
    http://www.regalpts.com/PowerTransmissionSolutions/Other/Belt%20Drive%20Monthly's/Form_9805E.pdf


    Quote Originally Posted by iwananew10K View Post
    That's pretty much the opposite of what you want to do.

    Use the Vfd to get your higher speeds...in simple terms horsepower remains constant above 60hz and falls off linearly below 60hz.

    and use a 5L belt...4L will bottom out in the V

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    if the existing belt was measuring in between an A and B belt I would presume it is a 5L belt that had wore down on the flanks...but you may certainly use any belt you wish...not an issue.

    The HP thing there is no getting around,if you run that motor at half speed it will also be 1/2 the horsepower, and just about ANY modern motor may be safely run to 120hz(double speed)

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    Now I get it. That VFD will go to 120hz to the motor. The motor is 1800 rpm at 60hz, so yeah can get extra rpm when needed with existing pulley ratio, up to around 3600 motor speed. Which would be up to 1400rpm at the spindle. Prob not needed very often, but available.

    Thanks for tuning me into that part of using a VFD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iwananew10K View Post
    ..and use a 5L belt...4L will bottom out in the V
    That's sensible.

    An "A" or "B" would probably have to be "grip notch" cut to get decent wrap on the smallest pulley - ordinarily the first one - at the motor.

    Both A and B sections are otherwise capable of waaay more HP than what is involved here. They just want larger diameters so they can get a decent grip.

    If one has a free hand at making driveline choices, PolyVee or MicroVee AKA "serpentine" belts are about as good AND as common and affordable as belting gets for small diameter pulleys or any other size. Pulleys and tensioning idlers can come out of auto/truck parts-bins, scrapyards, or eBay just as easily as the belts can.

    Their pulleys are also easier to make than legacy Vee profiles. Shallow grooves, plus the ability to be run with NO grooves, mean only a relatively thin rim is needed - even a re-purposed flat-belt pulley - instead of the deeper rim or solid blank wanted for the deep Vee.

    Transferring but one HP needs only about a 3 or 4 row width of the tiny Vee's. Anything wider - such as common underhood automotive belts - is just a nice longevity-boosting reserve.

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    Yes, since the SB utilizes a flat pulley on the countershaft the 5L has the most flex and a little more width on the inside so it can ride on the flat pulley.

    Poly v is the best IMO if one decides to abandon the V belt, such as a case where the motor pulley doesn't have enough meat to keep the size while still going on a larger motor shaft, as noted easy to make and really only the rim is needed,flat is fine at the power level and speed of an SB.

    I found good general rule with standard motors was to size things so the VFD ran between 45-120hz....of course with TNEV you can go much lower, even to zero since cooling is not an issue but the HP thing remains, there is a little bit of loss at 45hz but not enough to be really noticeable with a 3/4HP a or larger motor.(on the 9 and 10" SBs)

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    Quote Originally Posted by iwananew10K View Post
    flat is fine at the power level and speed of an SB.
    Given that the coolant pumps on some of my lathes are more powerful than the SB's final-drive motors, yes.

    FWIW-nothing-really About the only belting that WOULD be a reach too far might be round belts. Even those have "probably" been seen on SB 9's somewhere, somewhen.


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    Ordered the motor/VFD package today. Thanks to everybody for the enlightening on this topic.

    It was mentioned that torque drops off with RPM, but this is a "vector sensorless drive" that somehow compensates to a degree supposedly. I searched that and amazingly, google brought me back here where there were a couple threads. Well most of that is above my head but I think I can mount the motor, pulley, VFD, and configure the VFD. Apparently the VFD has a potentiometer input to vary the speed, so I can mount a rugged potentiometer up near the SB F-N-R switch and tuck the VFD safely into the pedestal where it wont take on metal dust hopefully.


    What really is "vector sensorless drive?"


    1 HP, 18 RPM, Toshiba Motor with 1 HP, 115 Volts, Teco VFD at Dealers Industrial

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    It's not torque that drops off, it's HP...

    you need a,dedicated enclosure because all the input and output wires are exposed...simply sticking in the undermount will not work...chips,dust,oil WILL fry it.

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    right, HP is derived from torque, rpm, and a small bit of math. Torque is pretty constant with electric motors but obviously the rpm changes.

    I've heard it suggested that using an 1125 rpm motor instead of a 1750 rated for the same hp works out better for slower speed operation. I have an 1125 3/4 hp sitting around that I've given thought to using partly for that reason, and partly because free.

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    The new motor has a smaller bolt pattern than the old one. So it has to be moved over and attached somehow. That motor SB plate assembly looks pretty hard to remove and I am not sure about drilling and tapping it in place. Maybe I can just drill the holes and slip the nuts behind it or unfasten it at the close end and swing it open enough to use carriage bolts from the inside.

    Any suggestions appreciated.

    img_20180113_212600-2-.jpg

    img_20180113_212401.jpg

    img_20180113_212610.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlyinChip View Post
    The new motor has a smaller bolt pattern than the old one. So it has to be moved over and attached somehow. That motor SB plate assembly looks pretty hard to remove and I am not sure about drilling and tapping it in place. Maybe I can just drill the holes and slip the nuts behind it or unfasten it at the close end and swing it open enough to use carriage bolts from the inside.

    Any suggestions appreciated.

    img_20180113_212600-2-.jpg

    img_20180113_212401.jpg

    img_20180113_212610.jpg
    Sorry. Not one shred of mercy from this corner!

    IF you cannot pull that plate, lay out the new holes accurately, drill and tap, plan for the possibility you may need shims, spacers, or stand-offs, confirm proper alignment and belt tension, re-install for smooth, reliable, long-life service?

    THEN WTF are you DOING even owning a machine-tool of ANY kind?

    Up your game, JFDI, and bask in the warm glow of a job well-done instead of a bastardized kludge!

    You are the one as has to live with this b***h. Don't start 'er off spring loaded in the PMS position. Keep 'er sweet!

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    Wasnt sure if there's another way to approach this.

    I read topics that this motor mount can be hard to disassemble. Looking for others who did different approach such as machining lugs that can use existing holes, adapter plate, someone who maybe did drill/tap the plate inside there (looks like it would be hard to hold a hand drill absolutely perpendicular.

    Yes I can easily layout the new hold locations.

    Also, there,s two locator pins that the old motor went up against, which may be in the way of the new motor.

    I didnt have 3/8" bolts last night but plan to bolt a piece of 3/4" plywood to the small top surface of this pedestal so I can turn it up side down and work on it that way.


    Am hoping someone has done this before and can share the best approach.


    mounting-lug.jpg

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    don't say I didn't tell you.

    But,seriously, if you provide a drawing of the old vs new plate with dimensions I *might* make a suggestion...I would look it up on the motor frame(ahem)chart but I Am just not that motivated.

    ps- if the new motor plate has the meat, just chain drill it for slots...a little saw and file work and you are in there.

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