Thread: 1916 SB paint color

I am starting to restore my 1916 lathe the previous owned painted it yellow I know that was not the ornigal color.
Can any one sudjust the proper paint color?

It was almost certainly black, but Japanned, not paint. There was a thread here a few days ago about alternatives.

allan

I have two old South Bend lathes(1913 and 1921) in their original factory paint.
They are painted in a semi gloss black oil based paint and are NOT Japanned. The finish is not very smooth. They did not spend a lot of time on the finish.
South Bend lathes were not Japanned.
When South Bend painted the early lathes, upon final assembly, they even painted the heads of the screws and bolts.

Rob

[When South Bend painted the early lathes, upon final assembly, they even painted the heads of the screws and bolts.

Rob[/QUOTE]

Funny Rob I have a number of old SB lathes also many in original finish when I got them and non of them had paint on the bolts or any other fasteners. They have all the ear marks of parts being painted separately even down to match number stamped in parts on my 1910 10 inch. Dalton used Japanning on there lathes and the old SB's I haves had the same appearing finish with the same kind of black filler in casting flaws.

I will agree to some extent on lathes built after the early 30's when SB went to the dark gray paint. These later lathes especially the smaller ones were partially assembled when painted but some parts were bolted on after they were painted. No paint on fasteners. The reasons I say these were painted unassembled many of the parts have paint everywhere but were they were mounted to the machine as there is evidence of masking. On some parts like lead screw hanger bearings you could not have gotten that uniform of coat of paint in some of the hidden areas if the lathe was painted fully assembled. Head stocks tail stocks saddles and aprons were painted before they were assembled on all the workshop lathes. I have been through to many of them in there original finish to think other wise.

On heavy ten and workshop lathes built during the war these I have seen in original finish do have the caricature of being painted after Assembly at least to some degree. It would only make sense that little time was spent on finish during the war when SB built 105,000 lathes if five years.

Turk

Dennis,

I am talking about the early lathes that were painted black and not the later lathes when they went to gray.

As to the fasteners, both of my early ones(I have many later ones also) are factory painted and I have seen others that are also painted. Again this is on the early lathes that were painted black.

South Bend bought their paint from the O'Brien Paint and Varnish Company from the start. Their early lathes were not Japanned. Japanning involves baking the part to 270 to 300 deg. This takes time and the cost is higher. The O'Brien brothers were into mass production of their lathes in part to keep cost down to be able sell more lathes, like Henry Ford and the model T, so Japanning was not done.

Rob

Did Southbend ever paint their lathes a dark green with orange handles? This 16inch is believed to be from 30's. The color is enough to make a person sick just looking at, much less running it.

When I stripped down my 1922 9'' the last (and only) coat of black substance was not normal paint. It was thick and filled many casting flaws. Under that was bare cast iron, so my lathe had no paint on it when it was sold. It was japanned in the normal black color you see all the older lathes.

My friends 1923 SB is beige with cracks like the Mona Lisa. I used to think it was original paint, cracked and yellowed with age. Now I think somebody gave it a coat of house paint!

CH

Hi Rob

I have four pre 1920 SB lathes the earlies one is the third oldest one we know of and I will stand by my statement that they were not painted as you say assembled. Like I said I know the Dalton's were Japanned and the early 1910 I have looks the same or did when I got it. The later ones do not but still were finished unassembled. I have not seen SB lathes that were painted assembled till the war years. Let see I think I have close to 30 of them now and worked on many more Rob.

I also agree with Swigin as many of my lathes in original finish the coat thickness was way heavier than paint would be. For me to replicate what I have removed I have to use as many as 30 to 40 coats of paint to get to the thickness I have seen on these old girls original finish. I don't think SB would ever have used that many coats of paint to get the results I have seen then obviously I am not using the paint or coating they used.

Dennis

Originally Posted by islediver

I am starting to restore my 1916 lathe the previous owned painted it yellow I know that was not the ornigal color.
Can any one sudjust the proper paint color?

Black. A dull black - not a flat black, not a semi-gloss - a "dull black". It would have looked shinier on the day it was applied, but the finish of choice "back in the day" would have been a paint or "varnish" made with primary ingredients of asphaltum, linseed oil, turpentine - and sometimes, a little amber. The asphaltum will oxidize on the very surface and stop - why it dulls.

High budget machine makers would have added some lead, which tends to make the paint slightly grey.

All sorts of variants of course, from using lampblack, pitch, coal dust, "green chrome" - but by and large, a dull black was the normal order of things.

Asphaltum and/or clay based fillers would have been used to fill and smooth casting voids and other irregularities.

Japanning is such a labor intensive, material expensive process - well, it wouldn't have been used on something as big as a shop floor lathe/mill/planer.

There is nothing I know of in modern paints that comes close to matching the originals' thickness and appearance.

Don't confuse the asphaltum finish with the shiny black found on things like the Singer Sewing Machine or a Victrola - that was a true "baked" enamel.

RE: japanning

Yes, those early lathes were japanned. Check this site here: Page Title

And yes, again, early serwing machines were japanned, too. From Scientific American, Volume 3, By Making of America Project, Page 221: Scientific American - Google Books
The articles were written in 1860!!!

And why wouldn't they have japanned? Great toolmakers did, i.e., The Stanley Tool and Level Company; Union Tool, Ohio Tool, Starrett, Athol Tools, Goodell Pratt; Millers Falls Tools; Brown, Sharpe and Darling (later Brown & Sharpe); Lufkin.

Interestingly, you'll note in some advertising, like Millers Falls tools, they spoke of "black enamel" because japanning is "Japanese enameling"!

Ironically, the Twins moved into the former Singer sewing factory when they began their lathe building.

Japanning is enameling, technically speaking.

Joe

Originally Posted by JohnS1969

Japanning is such a labor intensive, material expensive process - well, it wouldn't have been used on something as big as a shop floor lathe/mill/planer.

There is nothing I know of in modern paints that comes close to matching the originals' thickness and appearance.

Don't confuse the asphaltum finish with the shiny black found on things like the Singer Sewing Machine or a Victrola - that was a true "baked" enamel.

JohnS1969 has it right.

Once again, South Bend Lathes were not Japanned.


Dennis,

I did not say that South Bend Lathes were painted "fully assembled". I said "upon final assembly". I will have to clarify this for you. They were painted during the final assembly process in stages. A head stock assembled, then painted, a lathe bed and legs assembled and then painted etc. I know this for a fact. Once again I am talking about the early South Bend Lathes and not the ones from the 1930's and on. I do not know why you are bringing up the later South Bend Lathes. I never mentioned them. This thread was asking about a 1916 South Bend. It was said that they Japanned their lathes. They did not.

I am a machinist and work in machine repair. I have done this for fourty years. I have worked on many hundreds of South Bend Lathes of various ages.
As you may know I also collect antique machine tools. I have well over 100 machine tools ranging in size from a 20,000 lb. VBM to machine tools you can hold in your hand and ranging in age from the 1830's to the 1920's. I also have more modern machine tools in my shop.

Rob

Originally Posted by Petersontools

RE: japanning

Yes, those early lathes were japanned. Check this site here: Page Title

Ironically, the Twins moved into the former Singer sewing factory when they began their lathe building.

Tony's site is hardly stellar proof. He is wrong.

South Bend started their lathe building at a building on Johnson St. before they moved to the former Singer factory.

Rob

Originally Posted by JohnS1969

Black. A dull black - not a flat black, not a semi-gloss - a "dull black". It would have looked shinier on the day it was applied, but the finish of choice "back in the day" would have been a paint or "varnish" made with primary ingredients of asphaltum, linseed oil, turpentine - and sometimes, a little amber. The asphaltum will oxidize on the very surface and stop - why it dulls

Your recipe for this coating sounds much like the the recipe I have always seen quoted for japanning, leaving me to wonder what the difference is? Baking?

allan

Originally Posted by kitno455

Your recipe for this coating sounds much like the the recipe I have always seen quoted for japanning, leaving me to wonder what the difference is? Baking?

allan

Yup, that's pretty much it, along with a lot of hand work.

But you make a good point too: The ingredients are bout the same (only the ratios have changed), so the processes AND products tend to get called by the same name. Sometimes, these cold applied compounds were called "japans" (lower case) instead of paint or varnish, just because of their ingredients.

Young Tom Sawyer could just as easily been accused of "painting" that fence (the process), but it was because of the ingredients that Mark Twain related that Tom "whitewashed" it.

Those two ingredients - Asphaltum and Linseed Oil, were universally used in finishing. It wasn't too much further back in history that Asphaltum was considered a mineral curiousity, and Linseed Oil was a cast-off from flax.

Along comes the Industrial Revolution, and it changes everything. Now, a cheap, functional, appearance improving and defect hiding product is needed, and in large quantities. So Asphaltum and Linseed Oil are recruited.

So now the $64K question- In the absense of outside information, when faced with a tool which has been covered with swarf and various oils for 90+ years, is it possible to distinguish between Japanning and japanning?

allan

Originally Posted by kitno455

So now the $64K question- In the absense of outside information, when faced with a tool which has been covered with swarf and various oils for 90+ years, is it possible to distinguish between Japanning and japanning?

allan

LOL! Well, will it buff up to a hard bright sheen and stay that way? I cranked on Grandpa's old Sebastian lathe with rubbing compound and lots of elbow grease when I was young and dumb - it kinda got shiny for a day or two, then went right back to dull black.

Something expensive and small, say a jeweler's/clock maker's lathe - the Japan finish is unmistakable. 90 years of swarf and oils and under it all would be a bright, hard finish.

Big stuff, and especially stuff meant to be on the shop floor - well its just unlikely that the money would be spent to get a true Japanned finish.

In fact, I'm making this claim right now: No piece of production shop machinery bigger than what one man could move easily, and was used by a tradesman paid hourly, was finished in true "Japan".

I wasn't there, so I can't say - but I'm a'thinkin that the same prime motive determined what was used then as now - MONEY. I can tell you that over the years, I've gotten my hands dirty on a bunch of big machinery - none, as in zip, zero, zilch - had a true "Japan" baked finish.

And there is no modern paint I know of that will duplicate what the asphaltum coatings looked like. Closest I've come is using old-fashioned oil enamel with talc added to dull it.

Out in the garage, I've got a 16" by 6 South Bend. A modern one, but I'm looking at it from a manufacturing standpoint: it's a series of sub-assemblies.

Legs/base get cast, machined, and finished(a black coating), then set aside. Bed gets cast, machined, fitted and finished, and so on with headstock, gearbox, saddle, tailstock, etc.

Then the finely finished parts and all the others are brought together for final assembly. Now, through it all, there is lots of handling - means chain and pry bar marks and filing and scratching about. Plus, mebbe a few raw parts.

So now what - you take a can and brush and touch up that hand finished and baked "Japan" finish? It would look awful. I'm thinking they took a can and paintbrush and touched up the more practical Asphaltum/Linseed oil finish - which would blend right in. Rub it all over with a Linseed oil soaked rag, and when it dries - you are done - ship it!


JAPANS ARE EASILY APPLIED IN THIS MANNER
Dipping is one of several methods used in applying japans.
It is cheap and rapid and produces a satisfactory finish.
Brushing and spraying are often used also depending on
the nature of the parts and the quality of the finish desired.

(Factory Management Magazine, Jan, 1922)

Notice the way they use "japans" in the plural, and in lower case?

In fact, I'm making this claim right now: No piece of production shop machinery bigger than what one man could move easily, and was used by a tradesman paid hourly, was finished in true "Japan".

So, should I conclude that by placing a statement in bold print, it makes the statement true? Doubtful. If that were the case, all the research I've done over 40 years in the health sciences would've been a heckuva lot easier, however, my peers and their reviews would've been scathing.

I wasn't there, so I can't say - but I'm a'thinkin that the same prime motive determined what was used then as now - MONEY. I can tell you that over the years, I've gotten my hands dirty on a bunch of big machinery - none, as in zip, zero, zilch - had a true "Japan" baked finish.

Well, I'd say the burden of proof lies with you, and you are quite correct you weren't there...and I'd say no one on this forum was either. So this is a urinary competition match at best, which means we get wet and smell of uric acid...

the "J" in japanning doesn't really matter if in caps or not...and with all the toolmakers like Stanley and Millers Falls that used japanning, mustn't have been so horribly expensive since all their bench planes had it...and we're talking hundreds of thousands of planes...

BTW, the "pontypool asphaltum" recipe is:
raw linseed oil
of lump umber
flake litharge
asphaltum
cobalt resinate
white spirit or turpentine

If you desire to "clean" japan, just use Simichrome polish (Flitz works well, too!) after removing grease, oils and other nasties, and apply sparingly with a soft cloth

Joe

thank all of you for the input.
I have read how japanning is done. I do not have the furance or other equipment to aply japanning so I will paint it a dull black.

Originally Posted by Petersontools

[B]Well, I'd say the burden of proof lies with you, and you are quite correct you weren't there...and I'd say no one on this forum was either. So this is a urinary competition match at best, which means we get wet and smell of uric acid...

the "J" in japanning doesn't really matter if in caps or not...and with all the toolmakers like Stanley and Millers Falls that used japanning, mustn't have been so horribly expensive since all their bench planes had it...and we're talking hundreds of thousands of planes...

Whether one was there or not does not make any difference if one has an artifact to study, say a tool or machine from a factory. Archaeologist and paleontologist do it all the time in their line of work. I can look at the machined surface of a machine tool part and tell you what kind of machine it was machined on and most of the time what kind of cutting tool was used by the finish. I was not there but I can tell. It is called research. I will use your own example of Stanley and Millers Falls. You say that Stanley and Millers Falls used Japanning on their tools. How do you know? You were not there. Well, you have one of their tools in your hand that you can study.

To use Stanley and Millers Falls Japanning of small hand tools and equate that to large machine tools does not make any sense. With small tools you can do many at a time. Size matters. Stop and think. Do you think that a maker of, let us say, a 24" swing by 20' long lathe bed that was just precision machined on a planer is now going to put that lathe bed in a very very very big oven and bake it to almost 300 deg. If you believe that, then as the saying goes, I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell to you.

Does this mean that all the makers of early machine tools did not use Japanning? Since we do not have examples of all the early makers then the answer is no, but out of the over 100 antique machine tools that I have and the hundreds that I have had personal contact with, none have been or show signs of being a baked Japanned finish. This is of course for the larger machine tools. The very small ones that a person could carry is another matter.

Rob