1943 South Bend 16" x 60" Lathe Resurrection - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    The fruits of my labor so far are a few piles of greasy (and smelly!) parts. Looking pretty sad at this stage.

    img_3589.jpgimg_3591.jpgimg_3592.jpgimg_3597.jpgimg_3598.jpg

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    Time for a new carriage worm key? Pretty sure even I know the answer to that one is yes.

    img_3583.jpgimg_3588.jpg

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    Got the first sub assembly, the quick change gearbox, into the scrub tub tonight. Just as messy as you would expect, but not too tough to get apart considering.

    The tumbler pinion shaft, which is keyed to the pinion and rotates within a plain bearing bore through the tumbler arm, is looser than I would like. May need to sleeve it somehow since that shaft is rotating no matter what gear you're in.

    How much clearance should a steel-on-cast iron plain bearing arrangement have for proper lube and function? One of the photos shows the shaft in the bore, albeit reversed from its normal orientation.

    image1.jpgimage2.jpgimage3.jpgimage4.jpg

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    Realized I needed a very thin 1-1/4" open end wrench to get to the nut on the cone gear stack shaft. Of course, didn't have anything thin enough in my toolbox so scrounged around and found some 1/8" thick steel. Gouged out a rough approximation of a hex shape with a handheld grinder in about ten minutes. Did the job and beats the heck out of buying a tool I'll use exactly twice.

    image5.jpgimage6.jpgimage7.jpg

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    I know what you mean re the tumbler pinion shaft. The same items on my '41 10L where pretty bad too. The bore was nasty ovalled and the shaft scored and also not quite round any more and it was very lose. I've not repaired it as yet but I have had the bore enlarged and made true again on a friends milling machine - there is plenty of meat left. So I'll attempt making a new shaft before I attempt sleeving.

    Interesting the differences between years/models here. My tumbler arm is bronze - yours is not. Also, your assembly uses a key/keyway, mine does not, but it does have a small piece of rod that sits slightly proud the shaft and that goes into the keyway on the gear. I also have no channel in the bore for an oil felt.

    I too am interesting to hear what kind of shaft/bore clearance would be suitable here.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by StrayAlien View Post
    I know what you mean re the tumbler pinion shaft. The same items on my '41 10L where pretty bad too. The bore was nasty ovalled and the shaft scored and also not quite round any more and it was very lose. I've not repaired it as yet but I have had the bore enlarged and made true again on a friends milling machine - there is plenty of meat left. So I'll attempt making a new shaft before I attempt sleeving.

    Interesting the differences between years/models here. My tumbler arm is bronze - yours is not. Also, your assembly uses a key/keyway, mine does not, but it does have a small piece of rod that sits slightly proud the shaft and that goes into the keyway on the gear. I also have no channel in the bore for an oil felt.

    I too am interesting to hear what kind of shaft/bore clearance would be suitable here.
    The Ilion restoration manual mentions later models were fitted with a needle bearing at this interface. Depending on the size options for ID vs. OD, I'm thinking maybe I can find one (or a set of two inline with each other since the shaft is cantilevered) to replace the plain bearing design for this critical joint. Might involve turning the shoulder down on the shaft and enlarging the bore to get a nice press fit. Worst case is I have to remake the shaft entirely, but would be nice to have the lathe make its own replacement parts if it's not too far gone.

    The previous owner didn't seem to mind the noise, but to me noisy gears are sloppy gears and running them loose only accelerates bad things. It could also be it's just in a spot that doesn't get good lubrication, or the lubrication path may have been compromised years ago due to neglect. The felts I pulled out of this assembly looked more like rubber than felt with how tightly they were clogged.

    Based on the geometry of the tumbler design with the spline shaft passing right through it, the pinion shaft centerline must be parallel and at the right radius from the spline shaft centerline to achieve a good gear mesh. With some careful measuring and access to a mill, there's no reason I couldn't put them back into close mesh running on a needle bearing.

    I may be mistaken, but I believe the as-designed clearance between the shaft and tumbler arm would have been controlled by a standard "running" fit, probably based on the basic hole size with the shaft turned to fit--maybe an RC4, 5, or 6. I need to study up on fits and then see how to approach it once I'm confident I know what it's supposed to be.

    Basic overview of fits: Engineering fit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    If this is the worst thing I find going through the machine, I'll consider myself fortunate. Still haven't cracked open the headstock or apron yet, so we'll see what other surprises we find.

    Thanks for sharing the info on your 10L--the WWII years certainly seemed to see a lot of design evolution over a very short timeframe!

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    Quote Originally Posted by thomasutley View Post
    Time for a new carriage worm key? Pretty sure even I know the answer to that one is yes.

    img_3583.jpgimg_3588.jpg
    That's super worn! I recently replaced mine, I simply cut a new one from 5mm steel plate (couldn't find any 3/16 over here). Took me about 90 minutes with angle grinder, file and some emery paper on a flat surface:

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  9. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Flash View Post
    That's super worn! I recently replaced mine, I simply cut a new one from 5mm steel plate (couldn't find any 3/16 over here). Took me about 90 minutes with angle grinder, file and some emery paper on a flat surface:
    Thanks for sharing, Ryan!

    Hope you don't mind me pointing out to anyone reading this in the future that the photo above is related to the oft-referenced Ryan Batelle South Bend 13" restoration that many consider to be the best documented 13" resto log ever made. Whether it's a 10L, 13, 14.5, 16, or 16/24, your log is a wealth of info with great photos, detailed disassembly and reassembly instructions, and just plain old perspective on what matters and what doesn't. You do a great job pointing out how to live with and work around some aspects of machine wear and still make good parts.

    Once readers get past the SB log, the rest of your site is also outstanding. Feel free to post the direct URL if you don't mind the bandwidth on your server.

    How's the roadster doing these days? Any more mods since finishing it the first time?

    Take care!
    Last edited by thomasutley; 02-23-2015 at 01:45 PM. Reason: Added reference to one of the best SB 13 restoration logs on the web.

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  11. #29
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    Question for anyone who may know the answer: Does the presence of small threaded screws attaching all the brass badges/plates to this lathe's castings indicate prior removal and replacement, perhaps for painting?

    I'm used to seeing drive rivets, not screws, used to attach these items.

    Example photo attached showing the bed plate. Catalog number plate on the primary drive cover and the QCGB indicator plate have the same screws. I don't have the cone pulley cover for this machine, so can't say if the belt spindle speed chart had drive rivets or screws now.

    Thanks,

    Tom

    bed-tag.jpg

  12. #30
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    For posterity's sake, a couple of lessons learned after cleaning up the first major subassembly, the quick change gearbox.

    1) As tempting as it might be to soak a large subassembly in the degreaser bath, it's better to disassemble everything to the piece part level first, then clean the pieces one at a time. Fighting the mass of something as heavy as a gearbox or apron while splashing around in a vat of Purple Power only leads to dirty shop floors and a bad case of the stinkeye when your wife sees your clothes.

    2) When dealing with the various taper pins, tapered punches (drifts) are more effective than staight punches (drifts) of the same size. My taper pins were seated pretty stiffly--I have no reason to suspect they've moved in the 71 years since they were installed. While I didn't have any real difficulty ascertaining the big end from the small end, I did manage to very quickly mangle two small diameter straight drifts trying to knock the pins loose. Once I ran out of straight punches in my toolbox, out of desperation I reached for a tapered punch. I realized that a cone-shaped punch having a tip about the same size as the small end of the taper pin could handle the one or two stiff blows from a 2-lb hammer needed to release the pins without bending. At that point, the narrow straight punches could be used to extract the pins fully. See photo below for the comparison.

    Now that the gearbox is apart, I'm not seeing any showstoppers other than the worn tumbler pinion bearing interface referenced above, and that should be a fairly straightforward fix I can do at my leisure after the lathe is reassembled.

    drift-punch-options.jpggearbox-cleaned-01s.jpggearbox-cleaned-02s.jpggearbox-cleaned-03s.jpggearbox-cleaned-04s.jpg

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  14. #31
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    Started breaking down the apron this weekend between kids' sports events. The apron seems like the most technically challenging assembly to tackle, but after reading through the Ilion restoration manual a couple of times set about conquering it.

    Started with the thread dial, which was covered in a thick layer like the rest of the machine from all the previous owner's wood sanding and finishing. Much to my disappointment, I realized once I flipped the apron over the first time the threading dial pinion is missing. Pretty bummed about that, but it is what it is, right?

    Appears the leadscrew has been rubbing the casting, too. Makes me wonder if the apron was allowed to run loose from the saddle at some point, allowing it to sag into the screw.

    Can someone tell me the purpose of the radial grubscrew on the outer surface of the dial in the last photo? From what I can see down the hole, doesn't really appear to interact with the oiler on the top center of the dial. When seated, it's below the surface slightly, so doesn't interact with the housing, either.

    image1.jpgimage2.jpgimage3.jpg

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    Working my way in from the outside.

    apron06.jpgapron07.jpgapron08.jpgapron09.jpgapron13.jpg

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    As with all the other taper pin joints, I found it works best starting with a stiff tapered punch and a 2-lb hammer to knock them loose.

    As soon as I got the carriage feed wheel pin out it I could tell where a good portion of the slop in the longitudinal feed is coming from. Appears I'll be needing the next size up and a drill to match upon reassembly of the apron.

    apron02.jpgapron01.jpg

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    Pulling the splash shield off the back, I found what appears to be the original gasket very much intact. Note the longer screw from the center position of the five.

    I'm not sure what I was expecting when I pulled the cover off, but whatever it was, it wasn't this bad. That bird's nest of material seems to be some kind of plastic, not metal. Guessing it was something the previous owner used making his pool cue sticks.

    In the last two photos I'm starting to get a sense of where the rest of the longitudinal feed slop is coming from...pretty sure those collars are supposed to be tight up against their corresponding shoulders in the casting. Instead, there's roughly 0.150" of play, allowing the entire worm assembly to slide left and right in response to carriage wheel inputs.

    apron15.jpgapron17.jpgapron18.jpgapron19.jpgapron21.jpg

  18. #35
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    Once I got the worm assembly dissected, two things are pretty clear. First, the worm itself seems to be in pretty good shape. Second, everything else it's attached to is not. The collars are badly dished where they mate against the bushings, and the bushings are well being past out to pasture. I'm assuming, perhaps incorrectly, that both collars and both bushings started out with flat faces where they contact each other. All the years of rotating against each other have taken a big bite out of them, especially the ones on the tailstock end pushing the carriage toward the headstock. It's so far gone that the felt groove has completely disappeared from the face of the bushing! You can see where the groove used to be because the groove's radial cross section is still visible around the perimeter of the bushing.

    apron29.jpgapron30.jpgapron31.jpgapron32.jpgapron33.jpg
    Last edited by thomasutley; 03-02-2015 at 09:51 AM.

  19. #36
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    Should have posted these shots above the previous post. Here the headstock end collar (photographed upside down in the first picture) appears thicker than the collar on the tailstock end (right side up in this shot). However, it's only an illusion as the one on the tailstock end has just ground its way into that side's bushing so far it's nearly cut all the way through to the casting. It's surrounded by the very thinnest lip of what's left of the bushing perimeter.

    The last shot is just the headstock end of the worm after removing the collar. The bushing anti-rotation pin is visible here, still feebly doing its job.

    apron26.jpgapron28.jpgapron27.jpg
    Last edited by thomasutley; 03-02-2015 at 09:54 AM.

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    Some taper pins are worse than others. The one on the carriage drive pinion shaft was particularly stubborn. I eventually got it out, but not before bending the nose of my tapered punch over. It's hard to tell the difference between the feeling of the pin breaking loose and the punch nose giving way, but I'm getting better at distinguishing the two with every new taper pin "opportunity" on this machine.

    After a careful re-grind to make sure the punch's tip wouldn't spread the pin's diameter when striking it, and a couple more determined whacks with the 2-lb hammer, it finally broke free.

    For anyone following along working on their own machine, I think I had to hit it a half dozen times in total. If it hadn't broken free when it did, my next step would have been to heat the joint with a propane torch.

    apron22.jpg
    Last edited by thomasutley; 03-02-2015 at 09:55 AM.

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    The banjo casting and associated gears. The gear that mates with the slider shows some corner rounding, probably from someone trying to mesh the gears without stopping the drive. Overall, however, these items all seem to be in decent shape.

    banjo01.jpgbanjo04.jpgbanjo05.jpgbanjo06.jpgbanjo08.jpg

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    Closeup of the slider gear ID. I assume the pins protruding into the oil wick channel are to help secure the wick from moving when the gear slides in and out.

    banjo12.jpg

  23. #40
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    The cast iron halfnuts don't appear to need any attention. Makes me feel better after the disaster I found inside the worm gear assembly.

    The feed lockout tumbler shows some signs of abrasion from another gear. Could be it fell out of adjustment over the years. Seems to be functionally OK, however.

    halfnuts.jpgapron37.jpg


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