9A or Heavy 10?

Submachine · Feb 3, 2018

I am looking for someone that can help to compare and contrast a 9A versus a Heavy 10. I would like details, ie. spindal speeds, thread options, weights etc..

I am replacing a piece of crap import that I have in my basement ( going to get the torch out and create some modern art). I have a SB16 with 8 ft bed but it is in another building that I don’t heat and it’s a 1/3 of a mile away (I am a farmer). I believe either a heavy 10 or a 9A would be easy to move to the basement.

Thanks

steve-l · Feb 4, 2018

Wow, that's a loaded question. There are significant generations and styles of these lathes, plus you did not include the light 10 (10K), which is just a larger 9 with a slightly larger swing. Some of these came with cabinets, some without. Some with behind drives and some with below drives. These are all very light duty, take a small floor footprint and can be very accurate. None of them like carbide tools. They don't have either sufficient speed or stiffness. They are all lightweight and can be moved easily down stairs. They are very numerous and popular, but many are clapped out with worn beds. The newer models have flame hardened beds and are superior to the older variety. I own a 10K that I bought new directly from SB in 1980 and I love it, but its lightness makes it NOT suitable for my go to, general purpose machine. If this was to be my only lathe, it would be a 13 x 40 modern, 3 HP machine. The footprint would only be slightly larger, but hugely more useful.

packardbill · Feb 4, 2018

Both models are fairly common. The 10L (large spindle) heavy ten has a 1.375" spindle through hole that accepts the very common 5C collet (with spindle adapter), heavier, more rigid bed. The wide range gearbox, which was only available on the heavy ten offers 70+ feeds/threads compared to the standard box 48. 10L speeds (12) range from 55 to 1400 rpm. 9" 6 speed ranges from 50-675, the 12speed 9" ranges from 50-1270 rpm. There was a 16 speed model 9" (cl744) which also has speeds from 50-1270 rpm. Average weight for a 9", without bench, is about 350#. A 4foot heavy ten on a pipe stand cabinet weighs 900 lbs. On the used market, they fetch about the same price. Depending on what kind of work you plan on doing, either is capable in it's work design envelope. I would go for the 10L just for spindle hole,1" 5c collet (very common and 1" cap), more mass,etc. Info provided here is for 50's-60's lathes, not 20's-30's machines. I've never owned a 9" but I love my 10L. PB

on edit: the wide range gearbox was an option...the left hand tumbler lever will have 7 positions instead of the standard box 5 position.

Submachine · Feb 4, 2018

Steve mentioned that neither would be good for carbide, but packardbill mentioned 1400RPM on 10L. Isn’t that in the carbide speed range? I have a lot of brand new carbide and the options available for specialized carbide tools seems endless.

Let me ask another question since modern lathes were brought up. If I wanted to spend 3k-5k for a modern lathe with at least 24 inches between centers, that can be located in my basement(straight stairs from outside), what would you suggest?

Steven-Canada · Feb 4, 2018

Lathes + Machine Tool Archive

good site for info

South Bend Lathes

steve-l · Feb 4, 2018

Most 13x40 modern machines are cabinet based. So they can be disassembled where the lathe can be easily removed from the cabinet. This helps a lot when moving. My 13x40 late model SB (Korean) is 65" long, 22.5" deep and 52" high and it weighs about 1500 lbs. The footprint it occupies is about the same as my SB 10K and is actually several inches less deep. It is pretty simple to remove the bed from the cabinet with 4 bolts and set it on a skid with an engine hoist. You can then simply slide the bed down the stairs with block and tackle. You can then repeat the same procedure with the cabinet. Most engine hoists are collapsible where they can also be brought down the stairs, reassembled and the procedure with the lathes reversed for reassembly. Be careful to track any shims you find under the bolts because they determine the bed level.

steve-l · Feb 4, 2018

Also remember that the use of carbide requires both speed and stiffness, as carbides creates greater cutting forces and the SB 9 and 10s are pretty light and they were designed in their day for HSS. Can you use carbide tooling? Sure, but they don't like it.

Submachine · Feb 4, 2018

steve-l said:
Most 13x40 modern machines are cabinet based. So they can be disassembled where the lathe can be easily removed from the cabinet. This helps a lot when moving. My 13x40 late model SB (Korean) is 65" long, 22.5" deep and 52" high and it weighs about 1500 lbs. The footprint it occupies is about the same as my SB 10K and is actually several inches less deep. It is pretty simple to remove the bed from the cabinet with 4 bolts and set it on a skid with an engine hoist. You can then simply slide the bed down the stairs with block and tackle. You can then repeat the same procedure with the cabinet. Most engine hoists are collapsible where they can also be brought down the stairs, reassembled and the procedure with the lathes reversed for reassembly. Be careful to track any shims you find under the bolts because they determine the bed level.

Great information. Coincidentally, I am reinforcing those stairs today. I am comfortable they will handle 2000lbs+. If the rules allow, could you provide some specific manufacturers and models you recommend?

jim rozen · Feb 4, 2018

Any of the models mentioned can be brought down basement stairs once the machine has been disassembled. Any of those
lathes can be broken down into pieces handled by at most two people.

Bench model lathes like the 9A or the 10K require a much deeper bench then cabinet models. In particular the 10L has
a very shallow bench and can fit in places the others would have trouble in. Motor underneath is something you should look
for you have a restricted space.

The large spindle bore of the 10L is a bonus plus the ability to run the single most common collet available (cheapest). The
10K can run smaller collets like those used by the 9A, but the 10K can also run specialized (expensive) collets that are southbend
proprietary - the
6K collet.

Carbide tooling with the same geometry as HSS (translation positive rake) will generate the exact same cutting forces as the HSS
tooling and can be run at the exact same speed as the HSS tooling to good effect. There is no intrinsic reason to avoid carbide
tools on lathes like this.

The single reason to avoid carbide tooling in the home shop is, you need a special grinder with a diamond wheel to sharpen them
correctly, and most home shops find this to be more trouble than it's worth. Green wheels don't do a good job and unless
you can sharpen them properly the carbide tools work poorly. Insert carbide tools are a good choice but avoid negative rake
holders, and avoid coated inserts as they are effectively postive rake at low depths of cut, due to the honed edge typically
present on coated inserts.

This single issue (effective negative rake for low DOC) is responsible for the "small lathes don't like carbide tools" statement which
overall is incorrect I would say.

All things considered by the heavy ten if you can.

Submachine · Feb 4, 2018

steve-l said:
Also remember that the use of carbide requires both speed and stiffness, as carbides creates greater cutting forces and the SB 9 and 10s are pretty light and they were designed in their day for HSS. Can you use carbide tooling? Sure, but they don't like it.

I wasn’t thinking stiffness. I actually have tried to use them on my SB16 without any luck.

packardbill · Feb 4, 2018

You can use carbide, and I have. Spindle speed is relative to the type of material you are cutting and the diameter. Different materials like different SFPM (surface feet per minute) a .250" firing pin needs to turn faster than a 2.00" diameter stock of the same material. Carbide and HSS bits like different depth of cuts. You have to find a "sweet spot" balance between speed and depth of cut. I like HSS better for finish and sharpening.
Carbide should be sharpened with a diamond wheel, I don't have diamond...I use a green wheel. HSS sharpens nicely with good regular grinding wheels and a hand stone. I have some brazed carbide bits because I cant sharpen inserts.
Years ago, I had a 14" American, a slow,heavy, noisy, gear head. I used to turn rollers for concrete mixers from a local redi-mix company. I used brazed carbide so I didn't have to stop and re-sharpen in the middle of the job. Finish was acceptable, and not crucial to begin with. The rollers would be flat spotted from the grease resistance in the bearings in the cold and ice on the roller and mixer drum ring and would get flat spotted when a piece of aggregate got wedged between the roller and the roller frame in warm weather.
In summation, HSS or HSS/Cobalt is your best bet for the light weight SB's. It works best in the work "envelope" they were designed for. PB

m-lud · Feb 4, 2018

With the stronger stairs would your 16 work for your needs in the basement.

Submachine · Feb 4, 2018

mllud22 said:
With the stronger stairs would your 16 work for your needs in the basement.

mllud22 said:
With the stronger stairs would your 16 work for your needs.

Yes, I have seriously thought about that and have room for it. It is a monster, I believe it weights around 1.5 tons. I would bolt two 4x4s to it rounding the front of the like a sled. Throw some galvanized pipe down on the landing. Once it is inside, I could use my engine hoist to move it.

I keep getting scared from doing it since EVERYONE tells me the max stairs are rated for is 1 ton. Personally, I think it would be fine, then I have visions of the 16 crashing through the stairs -lol I would attach a hoist to a 6x6 that sits loosely spanning the outside door frame. I also have new 3/4 inch plywood that will spread the load. I not sure if the plywood is a good idea with skids or not?

It would all be worth it to see my wife’s face when she comes home and finds that lathe in the basement.

m-lud · Feb 4, 2018

Growing up on a small farm I am confident you can get about any job done that faces you. Without skills of moving weight farming is near impossible. You can lighten it but the pedestal is heavy. If it is a pedestal lathe. There a lot of threads on moving lathes. You know top heavy is the downfall. Pun intended

I like to uses slings. Lifting from bottom has almost got me in trouble.

iwananew10K · Feb 4, 2018

In a basement with you living up top?

That's one of the best reasons to learn your carbide insert tools.

No one wants to be breathing grinding dust and cutting oils in their home.

When I became ill,learning what carbide insert tooling works for small,light,low speed let me stay actively making stuff right at the kitchen table, and that was on a very old 9" @tl@s with the all belt drive...it doesn't get much lighter,less rigid,and slower than that.(about 600rpm top)

There's plenty of it that works and works well...it's just more expensive than a stick of HSS.

steve-l · Feb 4, 2018

jim rozen said:
Any of the models mentioned can be brought down basement stairs once the machine has been disassembled. Any of those
lathes can be broken down into pieces handled by at most two people.

Bench model lathes like the 9A or the 10K require a much deeper bench then cabinet models. In particular the 10L has
a very shallow bench and can fit in places the others would have trouble in. Motor underneath is something you should look
for you have a restricted space.

The large spindle bore of the 10L is a bonus plus the ability to run the single most common collet available (cheapest). The
10K can run smaller collets like those used by the 9A, but the 10K can also run specialized (expensive) collets that are southbend
proprietary - the
6K collet.

Carbide tooling with the same geometry as HSS (translation positive rake) will generate the exact same cutting forces as the HSS
tooling and can be run at the exact same speed as the HSS tooling to good effect. There is no intrinsic reason to avoid carbide
tools on lathes like this.

The single reason to avoid carbide tooling in the home shop is, you need a special grinder with a diamond wheel to sharpen them
correctly, and most home shops find this to be more trouble than it's worth. Green wheels don't do a good job and unless
you can sharpen them properly the carbide tools work poorly. Insert carbide tools are a good choice but avoid negative rake
holders, and avoid coated inserts as they are effectively postive rake at low depths of cut, due to the honed edge typically
present on coated inserts.

This single issue (effective negative rake for low DOC) is responsible for the "small lathes don't like carbide tools" statement which
overall is incorrect I would say.

All things considered by the heavy ten if you can.

Jim, much of what you have stated is the gospel truth for sure. I use both, but not carbide on my little SB 10. The lathe condition is like new. I bought it new and keep it that way. Your statement about positive rake carbide having similar cutting force as a HSS I think is not correct. The reason is because carbide tools must have very little rake for edge durability and therefore generate more drag than say a HSS bit that can easily tolerate 10 degrees of rake. Factory ground carbide tools are no where near as sharp as HSS. Yes, of course, with a diamond wheel, it is possible to get that sharp edge, but to do so, the edge becomes very fragile. Then there is the cost. HSS, especially the newer cobalt M35/M42 alloys are extremely durable and with just light sharpening can last many, many years. Of course carbide has its place, especially in a production environment, but not so much in the OPs case. Most home users,(Read hobby types), like to use insert tooling because they have yet to acquire either the skill of tool sharpening or have not made the investment in acquiring the correct grinder and wheels. It is a mistake and frustrating because they won't understand why their results are so poor and tool failure so high. I think Jim, just because you can make carbide work on a little machine, does not mean everyone else can.

steve-l · Feb 4, 2018

Getting back to the OP's subject, he is thinking about acquiring a general purpose lathe to use in his basement, but I don't think the SB 9 or 10s fit that bill as I stated. If he were to just increase his size slightly to a 3 HP machine say a 13 x 40, he would be much happier. That size machine can use insert tooling successfully. There are some Asian machines that are really nice, but many are not. The good ones will be 12 speed and cut a large variety of threads. The cheap machines have 9 speeds, do not go slow enough nor will they cut as many threads. Although my middle lathe fits the bill, It does not have a clutch and brake, which I would like. I think the best advice is to keep your eyes open, watch the auctions for a high quality modern machine.

jim rozen · Feb 4, 2018

Most of the pre-formed, brazed carbide tools (carbide nose brazed to a soft steel shank) really do come dull to start with. Those
really do need a diamond wheel to get good use out of before starting.

Carbide can run with the same *rake* as HSS but key is keep the clearances small - to avoid the edge breaking down as you say.

There are two other factors that carbide tooling does not tolerate well - interrupted cuts for one, and the other being the accidental
backwards rotation of the spindle by hand, when the tool is engaged in the cut. That second issue is instant death for the edge
for the reason mentioned above, the edge has no support from the backside.

My go-to carbide tooling for a heavy ten is TPG-221 triangular positive rake inserts in small valenite holders. These are not
through hole inserts but use a top clamp to hold the insert in the pocket. The shank of the tool holder is small enough to fit
into my QC tool holders. I use these when I need to remove a lot of metal from larger diameter steel stock, and I also use them
for turning harder steel stock as well. When the chips are coming off blue that's a sign that carbide tooling was a good choice.
Only trouble with the TPG inserts is, no chipbreaker which means one has to watch the rats nest from forming.

The other use that these are good for, is turning abrasive materials.

For those three reasons alone I keep a stock of uncoated TPG inserts on hand.

Submachine · Feb 4, 2018

iwananew10K said:
In a basement with you living up top?

That's one of the best reasons to learn your carbide insert tools.

No one wants to be breathing grinding dust and cutting oils in their home.

When I became ill,learning what carbide insert tooling works for small,light,low speed let me stay actively making stuff right at the kitchen table, and that was on a very old 9" @tl@s with the all belt drive...it doesn't get much lighter,less rigid,and slower than that.(about 600rpm top)

There's plenty of it that works and works well...it's just more expensive than a stick of HSS.

Funny side story. I was doing some wood working trying out my new Powermatic band saw on some great Amish kiln dried Walnut. Well, the wife was not too happy as I coated everything with a fine dust.. and she is a clean freak. On the positive side it was the first time the wife approved of a tool type purchase...meaning I installed a dust collection system.

Submachine · Feb 4, 2018

mllud22 said:
Growing up on a small farm I am confident you can get about any job done that faces you. Without skills of moving weight farming is near impossible. You can lighten it but the pedestal is heavy. If it is a pedestal lathe. There a lot of threads on moving lathes. You know top heavy is the downfall. Pun intended

I like to uses slings. Lifting from bottom has almost got me in trouble.

I planed on using slings and my old backhoe bucket to move it from the one building. Then an engine hoist to get it into position near the stairwell in the garage. Nothing in the garage that would be safe to sling to. The only part that I really haven’t figured out is how to get the Lathe and it’s sled to the correct angle safely to start the lowering. I don’t really want it slamming down once it hits its tipping point. I found a spider crane that I can rent...really cool but don’t want to spend the money.

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