Early 10L rebuild - teardown and inspection

Well, time to get started. I bought a 10L last weekend and figure I'll get into 'phase 1' which will be tearing it down and inspecting it to see what needs replacing or repairing.

It is my opportunity also to get to know how the machine works. I am not familiar with them at all. So, it'll be a learning opportunity. This project will be quite a challenge for me, so I am thanking all in advance for any assistance offered. Much appreciated.

I bought the heavy 10 renovation book and I must say that what they describe is not very much like mine at all. I am guessing that my model year must be earlier than they have had access to when creating the book. I'll be contacting them to offer some help in getting the book correct for future buyers. I am glad to have the book, but be warned - it ain't correct for some models. I do understand models change over time. Fair enough. But so far, for my model, the book has been more of a rough guide than anything.

Some typical examples are differences in oil feed paths and wicks and so on. I just spent $60 (international) getting a wick/gasket kit from them as well and now I am doubting if it be suitable - we'll see!

As an example, the book refers to oil passages that don't exist on the reversing tumbler and recommends expanding and tapping out holes underneath it which don't exist on mine:



The paint is slapped on pretty thick, so I removed some to see if a passageway was covered. Nope:



It describes oil passages and wicks around the gears that aren't there so I am gussing ..

the reversing tumbler gears are oiled via these holes? :



You can see from the above pic the gears have some play in them. Here are some closeups:





Is that too much play? Not having had much experience with old lathes I don't have a feel for how lose or tight they should be.

The manual describes a guard to the bull gear pin, I don't have a guard, nor is there anywhere to attach one. I guess those came on later models.



Certainly one huge surprise was not finding bronze spindle bearings. Mine are plain and are machined into the casting. I haven't quite read all of that bit in the book, but I am pretty sure it covers only the bronze ones. Might be on the next page, so I'll not say it aint there!. :-)

Some quick research on this forum reveals that plain bearings were used up to and during the war years.

The old gent I bought the lathe from was using automotive oil for everything I think ..... so I am interesting in opinions on bearing condition, and how I might test they are still in good shape. They had oil on them when, and the lathe was very oily when I got it, so at least it was being oiled. Likely the wrong oil is better than no oil at all! :-)

Here they are:









Not the diameter of the wick in the lower bearing.

The day's final act was to let that fabulous SB plate on the bed see the light of day again. The intoxicated chimps that painted the lathe just layered gobs of paint over it.





Unfortunate that to get the paint off of it, also takes the paint off the plate as well ... a real shame, but at least it is still there!

Yes- the Ilion book does not cover the early single tumbler machines. The biggest differences you will find are spindle bearings, the reverse tumbler, and the gearbox. The last has a good rebuild manual on one of the yahoo groups. The spindle bearings look good, and are dead-simple to get back together, set the clearance with shims just like the bronze bearings. The reverse tumbler does not have all those oil passages, because there is access to the oil holes in the ends of the shafts. The later machines end covers prevent access, so SB added those wacky oil passages. The apron is basically the same, and that is where much of the felt goes, so don't feel cheated.

allan

Thanks Allan, good to know. Just fyi, the latest edition of the book does have a new section dedicated to the single tumbler 'box - which is cool.

Good info on reverse tumbler. Thanks. So, those little holes in the tumbler gears are for oiling?

StrayAlien,

I too had these same issues as I did when I tore apart my SBL 10L single tumbler circa 1941 lathe. As you have found, the book is more of a "guide" to get you where you need to be, rather than an absolute step by step manual when it comes to these older lathes. I wouldn't worry about the reverse tumblers and the oil passages. I didn't.... You have all the teeth on the gears, and clearance is good. Just run it that way until they wear out (if they ever do).

Your book should cover the single lever gear box. Let me tell you, that is the most challenging part of the resto, in my opinion. My box came apart VERY easily. It didn't have the tapered pin through the only nut in the box (the thin nut, which I made a wrench for) So even still, with the guide, there were differences between my box and the guide. It came apart so easily, as I was saying, that I didn't pay too much attention to the fine nuances of how it was together in the first place, figuring the guide would tell me how to put it back together. It took me 4 attempts, but I finally got it after walking away from it a few times. It's definitely worth the work. Also, just prime and 1st coat it. don't finish painting the box till after you have finished reassembly (you will bung it up)

Your bearings are the same as mine too. Mine are more scored than yours and I have had no issues with them. Just make sure there are no high spots on the bearings or the spindle where you can get metal to metal kissing. If you have galled material on the superpolished bearing surfaces of the spindle, stone it flat with a fine stone, VERY gently. I think that the segmented cast iron bears are just as good as the bronze sleeve bearing if they are taken care of well. You should get a ton of service out of them. Refer tot eh sticky in this forum about the SBL recommended lubricants.

Your plate....it's not a lost cause.


I realize my color scheme is not original, missing the black lettering in the SOUTH BEND portion, but hey, mine too was painted over by some hooligans many times, and I quite like it better now, than before. I Sprayed rustoleum pro rattle can RED over the entire thing, then used mineral spirits, and a rag, and a soft wood stick to rub the paint off where I didn't want it. Very tedious, but gratifying when done.




Good luck! You'll have a ton of fun.

StrayAlien..good photos

Yes those little holes are for oiling, there are wicks in there.

Packrat, thanks re the photos. Happy to share how I get 'em here.

Thoro. thanks. Lot of good advice in there! Thanks re the bearings info. I didn't measure spindle play or anything before starting teardown (I already had it dismantled for transport), so I guess I'll learn how good they after I get it back together and check shims etc. And those badges look *beautiful*. Well done. I have read about the paint and 'balsa wood' technique on this forum.

Thanks Husketscott, I haven't got a press of any sort to get the reversing gears out, so I've not got that apart yet. I am being cautious and not bashing things with a hammer. I was considering not not getting them apart, but if there are wicks in there then I'd best get them out and replace the wicks. Thanks.

So .. more tonight .. the good lady and the dogs and are asleep .. so I can sneak out to the garage. :-)

The left side spindle shims:





I don't quite know what the see-through stuff is all about but the shims both left and right are about 25-28 thou each. So, I am guessing that leaves a fair about of room for adjustment when it comes time to sort the shims later. At least, it seem better than if they were, like, one thou each side ...



As I was sniffing around with a torch just to inspect everything and I saw these little guys in the oil return feed holes that flank the spindle bearings:





Are they there just to block stuff getting into the oil return feeds?

So, I thought I would be good idea to poke around every hole and see if anything else was lurking. This is what came out of the screw hole underneath the right wide of the quill gear split bushing:



Whoops. That needs replacing.

Getting the spindle wicks out. Left wick seems okay (but will be replaced):



Right wick is not so good. The oil floating around at the bottom of the reservoir looks like old sump oil:



So, I thought I give things a flush. I thought this was the reservoir drain plug ..:



But ... I have fiddled around with wire to see if I can find a path from the hole to the reservoir but no joy. There is a hole above the oil cup that looks like an overflow:



But .. with the mystery hole, I can blow compressed air into it and nothing comes out the reservoir or anywhere. So, it is either very blocked, or not related to the oil reservoir at oil. Thoughts?

The headstock before a clean:



and after. Not too bad.





I have no idea when it would have been painted last.

Thoro, my gear cover plates:





:-)

A specific question I do have for this evening is .. how the hell do I get this guy out!! :

(it is the right front headstock oil cup)



It is supposed to rotate, but it almost abuts the headstock casting and it can't rotate much at all - it hits the casting:



Someone go it in there, so I am guessing it should some out also. I can rotate it, but only until it hits the casting. Thoughts?

Greg.

Regarding the cup removal, I had the same question last year and got some good answers and links.
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/south-bend-lathes/sb-10l-spindle-oil-cup-removal-274938/

Short story is you can grind clearance on the headstock casting so the cup will turn, or pull the cup and bushing it is screwed into out of the casting as a single unit.

Thanks gzig, excellent link .. and it led me to some other great threads on this forum. Cool.

Just for the record, our manual does cover the single tumbler gearbox on all of the SBL industrial lathes. One chapter each on the Single and Double tumbler.

Regards, Steve
Ilion Industrial Services

StrayAlien,

The bent wires in the main bearing oil drain holes are meant to be there. The break the surface tension of the oil so that it drains through the holes.

The hole that you threaded the wire through that came out of the ain bearing wick hole is used to retain the spring loaded wicks while reassembeling the spindle. You depress the wicks and then run a stiff wire, nail or something similar into the hole and that keeps the wicks down during reassembly. When the spindle and bearing caps are in place you then pull the wire or nail out and the wicks will pop up into contact with the spindle.

Vlad

Steve: yes, I got the edition with both single and double tumbler. Thanks for putting in the effort to make such a book. I hope it pays you dividends.

Vlad. Re the little holes above the oil cups. Thanks. Got it.

Do you know if the screw-plugged hole underneath the right side oil cup is an oil drain? - it is shown above in the last pic in the bottom center left. I've not managed to find a parts catalog for these earlier models but that hole and screw is not mentioned on the later model parts catalog.

Greg.

Greg,

I do not know what that csrew is but I doubt that it is an oil resivoir drain. It is not in line with the pil passages.

Vlad

Greg,

I wonder if you could do me a small favor and measure the diameter of the wire used for those little brass bent wire thingies in the main bearing oil drain holes? (They appear in your photos in post 7.) Approximate length of the loop part (+- 1/16") would also be helpful.

I have an intermittent oil consumption problem with my old Seneca Falls lathe and I would like to try adding these, as I suspect the problem is caused by the surface tension issue that Vlad mentioned in post 11.

Thanks so much, and sorry to everyone for side-tracking the thread, though I didn't use a private message because I thought that this info may be helpful to others.

Dave

I'm a different Greg, but I pulled those wires out of a 1940 vintage 9" recently and threw them away because I'd never seen anything like them before. Now I understand the older machines came with them. Anyway, I'm pretty sure the copper looking wire was about .040" thick. Mine did not have the double bend shown, but were a simple v-shape that would go down the drain hole. I don't think the later machines had them, at least I've never seen them, but I don't see how they could hurt as long as the wire is fine enough not to block off the hole.

Hi StrayAlien (interesting to know that extra-terrestrials have lathes too!)

I wonder if you could please reconnect the links to your photos - I am interested in the oil wires especially.

Cheers

Skilly

Hi all,

I hope this helps. Apologies for the metric, but the wire thickness is 0.82mm == 32 thou-ish.



Skilly, do the photos not show for you? I can see them all.

Oh, Vlad, re the 'drain' below the oil cup. Agreed. It looks nowhere near where the oil can go, so for now ... I'll put it down to a missing little-known SB headstock ash-tray attachment. :-)

Quick and dirty, pressed for time. Here are two pics of my "puller" for the oil cups as it did not appear to have enough clearance to grind away a bit of the casting. The screw driver was behind the puller to act as a pivot point while I gently tapper the "puller" with a brass mallet. It worked. I kept the puller *just in case*. When you put the bushings back into the castings, gob a bit of teflon paste in them, careful n ot too much, but just enough to really fill any cracks to prevent little oil leakage.

Thanks for the drawing (and wire diameter) of the clip that goes in the oil return hole; that's exactly what I need. - Dave