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If you were buying a new grinder to grind your HSS tool bits...

xplodee

Hot Rolled
Joined
Oct 14, 2013
Location
Allentown, PA
Say you have $350 to spend and want to spend that much. If you all were buying a new grinder to grind your HSS tool bits for your trusted SB lathe, which would you buy:

1) Enco Carbide Grinder with miter tables. Sure it's a chinese machine but there are plenty of videos on YouTube out there to re-machine some problem areas and make it work perfectly. I would then buy new wheels for best use on HSS.

2) Baldor 6" model 612 Bench Grinder with 1/3rd HP motor. Not going to be as fancy as the carbide grinder, but we're only grinding HSS after all.

Both options are ~$350.
 
Porter Cable 6" variable speed grinder....about $90 at Lowes. I think the speed can be varied between about 1100 rpm and 3500 rpm. Lower speed is great for grinding HSS. Quality is so-so but it's certainly functional. I use it with great success on 5% and 8% cobalt.

Second choice might be something with a 1750 rpm motor
 
I actually have one of those Porter Cable grinders at my work shop and what I can't get past is the crappy tables on them. It makes adjustments so hard! I like the way the Baldor bench grinder's table is nice and solid with good solid mounts (that I can change to knurled thumbscrews made on the lathe). To me that's worth some extra bucks. Plus the fact that I'll have it forever.
 
For home shop.

Dewalt 8” for $134 with free shipping from ebay. Likely you will never wear it out.

Same from Amazon $127.99 (free shipping prime) .. down from $230 or so.
That is a deal on a good grinder.

Yes I have a Baldor Carbide Grinder and it is a great machine..Good for carbide, perhaps over kill for HSS tool bits. Yes for the right price the Baldor beats all for HSS or carbide.IMHO.But grinding on the wheel OD is better for HSS. Carbide Grinders grind with the face.

Just looked at the Enco Carbide Grinder. it looks decent and for home use likely a good machine. Tables steel or Aluminum? steel better.

Still not as good as a used Baldor Carbide Grinder.

Oh the ENCO 891-8106 like a baldor Carbide Grinder is discontinued.
The other ENCO 328-1952 I don't like.
 
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I just bought a real nice baldor carbide grinder at hgr for $199. About 6 months ago I bought a real nice black and decker, nothing like what you think of as a black and decker, super well built, for $100. I have seen several 8" baldors at auctions for $200-$300. Why not look for a deal like this? Type grinder into craigslist.
 
Quote Iwana:
Edit- I looked on Enco and can't even find their carbide grinder??

Might have been a POS? As it is now discontinued.
One would have thought they would have improved it a bit and sold it for 5 or $600 if any good to start with.

Harbor Freight had one also and it is no more. (might have been Enco made)

Grinder motor with hubs 100
Two tables 100 each-----200
profit -----------------200
Yes that seems possible.

Almost forgot:
POS
Pretty obscure similarity
 
Great feedback guys, that 8" Dewalt looks fantastic for the cost and will hold me over until I can find a used Baldor 500 carbide grinder.
 
I have a Baldor 153C that I purchased several years ago for $50.00. The cord was shot and threw sparks where it went into the base. There were two diamond wheels on it too. A cutoff computer cord and 15 min is all it took to bring it back to life.

A couple of years ago I purchased a like new Norton 220 grit diamond wheel for
all of 25 cents. It now lives on the Carbide grinder.

You do not want to use a Diamond wheel on normal HSS, there is iron in it. The hot iron in the sparks will absorb the carbon in the diamond and dull the wheel very quickly.


There are steel backed white wheels for the Baldor Carbide grinder for HSS use.

Small Tools in Euclid OH is here:Small Tools New and Used Tooling Of All Kinds


Hgrinc.com has several grinders:

https://www.hgrinc.com/productDetail/Machine-Tools/USED-DELTA-BALL-BEARING-GRINDER/06151070016

https://www.hgrinc.com/productDetail/Machine-Tools/USED-ROCKWELL-CARBIDE-TOOL-GRINDER/05151440005

https://www.hgrinc.com/productDetail/Machine-Tools/USED-BALDOR-TOOL-GRINDER/05150290024


https://www.hgrinc.com/productDetail/Machine-Tools/USED-BALDOR-DUAL-CARBIDE-TOOL-GRINDER/04150670027

Hope this helps.

Bill
 
The big problem with using a carbide grinder for HSS is finding suitable AO wheels. The plate-mounted AO wheels used to be readily available, albeit expensive, but now are rarer than hen's teeth. I only found one source and they wanted me to buy a carton 0f 12 at around $170 each:eek:

I have a great old Delta/Rockwell carbide grinder, sturdy as a rock, reversible, with nice heavy tables and the original miter gauge, but when the AO wheels wear out it will be one of the above, not-so-great straight grinders to replace for HSS bits and general grinding. The carbide grinder will get either SC or diamond wheels, still available, for the small amount of carbide grinding I do.

For some profiles the edge of the wheel is much better anyways.
 
The big problem with using a carbide grinder for HSS is finding suitable AO wheels. The plate-mounted AO wheels used to be readily available, albeit expensive, but now are rarer than hen's teeth. I only found one source and they wanted me to buy a carton 0f 12 at around $170 each:eek:

I have a great old Delta/Rockwell carbide grinder, sturdy as a rock, reversible, with nice heavy tables and the original miter gauge, but when the AO wheels wear out it will be one of the above, not-so-great straight grinders to replace for HSS bits and general grinding. The carbide grinder will get either SC or diamond wheels, still available, for the small amount of carbide grinding I do.

For some profiles the edge of the wheel is much better anyways.

There is one wheel commonly available for the Delta/Rockwell style grinders:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0013SZGKM?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00

About $60 shipped and should do the job on HSS. I ended up picking a full pedestal carbide grinder for my price point so I'm very happy. Will need a good cleaning/repaint but runs smoothly! Thanks for all of the advice guys. By the time I priced out a decent 8" bench grinder plus pedestal I feel I was better off to spend the money on a carbide grinder and have something that will do more precision right out of the box.
 
Here's how I'd spend the $350 to grind HSS bits for a South Bend lathe:

$75 for a used but quality 6-7" US-made grinder; ideally with a light.
$60 for a pair of quality white (or similar open structure AlO) wheels, two grits.
$50 for a Lee Valley / Veritas grinding rest or equivalent.
$15 machinist's small protractor.
$150 beer. "Stone" IPA might fit the theme.
 
An old machinist worked for my dad into his late eighties. He showed me how to grind a threading bit. "First if the grinder has a table on it, take it off and throw it in the trash." he said. Then he ground a HSS bit and handed it to me. I said, "Don't you check it with a fish tail gauge?" He said, "Good point, you should check it until you have ground a few thousand then you won't need to any more." He went to his tool box and got his fish tail and handed it to me." The threading bit he had just ground from a blank fit the gauge perfectly. He also sharpened drill bits down to 1/8" by eye. They always worked at least as good as new.
 
Gary, That reflects my experience as well.

I was turning something in a lathe and one of the old codgers didn't like the looks of my cutting tool. Now mind you, I had spent quite a bit of time the night before creating that cutter with a protractor and setting up the table angles and all that stuff...

He grabs a new blank out of his toolbox, flips on the pedestal grinder, hits one side, sparks a'flyin, hits the other side, hits the top side, dunks it in the cooling water, and hands it to me. Whole process took like 45 seconds and worked 1000 times better than the one I must have spent a half hour on.

I asked him what angles he used and his response was something like "The right ones. Cuts nice, doesn't it?"
 
I have a lot of experience with sharpening hss steel tools for my wood lathe, I am just getting into metal turning, so give me a break if this does not apply.
CBN wheels are my choice, they don,t load up like friable wheels, do not need to be trued up, less heat transferred to the tool and I get a sharper edge.
Expensive, $ 150 to 200, but wort he every penny. I don't think you can wear them out, also run very true and smooth.
Jeff
 
Yes I have a Baldor Carbide Grinder and it is a great machine..Good for carbide, perhaps over kill for HSS tool bits. Yes for the right price the Baldor beats all for HSS or carbide.IMHO.But grinding on the wheel OD is better for HSS. Carbide Grinders grind with the face.

I'm curious how you grind the side and back rack on your tools using your carbide grinder? As I wrote above, I got a beautiful early Rockwell/Delta grinder with stand, light and drip pot for a great price.

Should I make a jig to grind on the front of the wheel for side and back rake? All of the other angles seem simple enough but the two rake angles are a bit awkward to grind on the face of the wheels.
 
Gary, That reflects my experience as well.

I was turning something in a lathe and one of the old codgers didn't like the looks of my cutting tool. Now mind you, I had spent quite a bit of time the night before creating that cutter with a protractor and setting up the table angles and all that stuff...

He grabs a new blank out of his toolbox, flips on the pedestal grinder, hits one side, sparks a'flyin, hits the other side, hits the top side, dunks it in the cooling water, and hands it to me. Whole process took like 45 seconds and worked 1000 times better than the one I must have spent a half hour on.

I asked him what angles he used and his response was something like "The right ones. Cuts nice, doesn't it?"

That's how I do it. I'm not 80 yet. :D

I have a lot of experience with sharpening hss steel tools for my wood lathe, I am just getting into metal turning, so give me a break if this does not apply.
CBN wheels are my choice, they don,t load up like friable wheels, do not need to be trued up, less heat transferred to the tool and I get a sharper edge.
Expensive, $ 150 to 200, but wort he every penny. I don't think you can wear them out, also run very true and smooth.
Jeff

My guess, with a similar background, is that if you have gotten good at sharpening effective wood cutting tools and understand how geometry and tool approach angles affect the cut and prevent or contribute to tear-out, smooth cutting, etc, etc, that you have one specific habit to overcome and you will be very, very good at it, better than most modern machinists.

The one habit that woodwhackers tend to develop is pushing the envelop on rake and clearance angles. Woodworkers may use neutral rake and very rarely neg rake to prevent tear-out in wild and wildly changing grain. Say french heads for the shaper and scraper profiles for the lathe, until they learn about hi-shear tools being as effective though much harder (more complex) to grind. But other than that, woodworkers tend to strong rake, shear when possible, and loads of clearance with very acute cutting edges.

For metal, generally less positive and neutral tools work with more stability in the cut, and less clearance makes them last much longer. Metal is less springy than wood, so it only needs a few degrees of clearance, as opposed to 15, 20, or even 30° in some cases for wood.

The other thing woodworkers are very good at is understanding and refining every ground edge with slipstones and hones to make it truly smooth, sharp and more durable. This is very effective for metal cutting tools, too.

I use an open wheel grinder, no guards and no rests, for all my hand ground tools and bits. I've made buckets full of woodworking shaper (moulder) profiles that way. I don't reccomend open wheel, it is just how I learned and for profile knives and you sometimes change through 3 or 4 wheel widths and profiles to grind one, so the guard gets in the way.

If anyone comes up with a source for AlO wheels for the so-called "Carbide" grinders, I'd love to know. I bought one for my kid sister a few years ago for a wedding present (she asked for it :) )and have regretted ever since that it only came with green wheels. She obviously does not use it often, but both for health and effectiveness reasons, I feel guilty not having followed up with some decent AlO wheels. I had not realized at the time how difficult that had become.

smt
 








 
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