Which compound/toolpost setup, advantages & disadvantages

In doing my restore of my 16x6 turret lathe here:
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...no-2-h-turret-lathe-16-x6-restoration-317814/

I have three compound options:
1)The original turret type, with t slots for turret tool holder
2)A toolroom type, with lantern post I got off ebay, missing the chip guard extension for compound, but keeping my open.
3)Taper attachment type, which compound/lantern post would be similar as toolroom type. This one I am considering stealing from my 2nd machine, to which I may restore with a normal toolroom type and sell, but undecided yet.

Currently I went with the original turret type. I am thinking probably 99% of what I am going to do this will accomplish. Plus I like being able to setup 4 tools at once, and with a lever throw change to the next tool. But I am thinking I may restore and keep options 2 & 3 on the side if I need to do any angle cuts or tapers.

The taper attachment's use is obvious, and I can think of some pump and clutch shafts with tapers that I see. But I'm not sure I want all that on my machine for every use, extra complexity, more points of failure, wear or binding.

I'm not a lathe guy that's run these everyday in shop. So is it worth keeping all three types ? I can think of a couple of angle cuts where a toolroom type might be handy. But mostly I think I'll be going straight ahead or doing square cuts, The chamfer cuts I'm thinking of I should be able to use the turret type as well. Is there anything special with the toolroom type you guys are doing ? Or prefer use of one over the other ? Maybe some idea or opinion that I may be missing ?

if your screen name is any indication then IMO the choice is obvious if limited to one lathe.
I would use the compound in your 2nd pic, with the taper attachment from you 3rd pic.

BUT If at all possible I would keep the turret set up on the machine as original, use it for pump and shaft work and get a 2nd lathe for general purpose and gun work.

Kind of depends? Is the installed CS hand wheel T/A compatible? Or did you intend swapping this out also? I am referring to the original 2H hand wheel and CS screw not being telescoping

iwananew10K said:

if your screen name is any indication then IMO the choice is obvious if limited to one lathe.
I would use the compound in your 2nd pic, with the taper attachment from you 3rd pic.

BUT If at all possible I would keep the turret set up on the machine as original, use it for pump and shaft work and get a 2nd lathe for general purpose and gun work.

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Taking a break from firearms atm, not my primary gig anyway, but I could get more involved later on. I may keep both machines. I'd like to actually, and they are a year apart in manufacture, and most parts are the same, I could use one to work on the other, steal parts if need be, lol. Plus stocking more spare parts makes more sense with two machines that can use them. Its more of a shop space issue. I have other things I want to get, and I'm wondering where to put it all. I'd hate to move again, haha.

johnoder said:

Kind of depends? Is the installed CS hand wheel T/A compatible? Or did you intend swapping this out also? I am referring to the original 2H hand wheel and CS screw not being telescoping

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Good point. I could basically just spin the turret type off the crossfeed, and spin the toolroom type on pretty easy. The taper attachment would need more to make it happen. I had measured both previously as how long the shaft end sticks out of saddle. Its real close, close enough that I think I can make it happen. But yeah, would have to swap all the crossfeed telescoping pieces, not convenient for sure. Plus if memory recalls, the part of t/a that bolts to end of saddle, two bolts and two dowels, to hold alignment im thinking. This saddle has the bolt holes, but i'd have to work out alignment, drilling and pinning the dowels. All doable, just more work, and not a five minute swap over.

tg,

Late to the party, but the turret compound has the t-slots for either a rear toolpost or other tooling. I would think that could be an advantage at some point, and many people have bought similar compound kits and milled them for their SB9As.

Is there any disadvantage to that compound, such as difference in height from the other 2?

If you have the lever cross slide, it might mount on top of the turret style cross slide. A cut off would be nice on the rear, flipped upside down so you could part off parts from the rear.

What type of work do you plan on the bed turret ?

I believe you have a lead screw also, right ?

Alan

Do you have the rockers for that turret tool holder?

texasgunsmith said:

Plus if memory recalls, the part of t/a that bolts to end of saddle, two bolts and two dowels, to hold alignment im thinking. This saddle has the bolt holes, but i'd have to work out alignment, drilling and pinning the dowels. All doable, just more work, and not a five minute swap over.

Click to expand...

There's a detailed, step by step SBL Co. instruction sheet for installing a taper attachment on a machine that did not come with one from the factory. It's fairly tedious, several critical tenths measurements that are a PITA to take unless you're well stocked on indicator accessories, and potentially involves both some scraping and Babbitt pouring/re-pouring to align the drawbar with the bed clamp.

Totally worth having it installed, however, assuming it doesn't interfere with any of the turret functionality. If you can't find it by Googling, lemme know and I'll email a copy that I have saved somewhere.

My vote would be get both machines running if you have the floorspace to spare.

I just bought another lathe last week (I know.. I know..) and it has the production style crosslide with t-slots, no compound. I did not think that was a big deal until I started playing with it today and realised I have gotten accustomed to using the compound to take real fine cuts at times and to thread. Not the end of the world, maybe it is just a matter of trying different procedures.

For someone that is not using a specific lathe setup every day, I think you would probably be fine with the production slide. I must admit the quick change tool post solidly bolted to it sure is rigid.

I would probably keep the taper attachment with it's original machine for reasons stated above. And do consider keeping the second machine and using it, I have three 16's and now a fourteen that can share tooling and accessories and I wonder how I used to get along with just one lathe.

Hope this helps,

Marc

traditional-tools said:

Late to the party, but the turret compound has the t-slots for either a rear toolpost or other tooling. I would think that could be an advantage at some point, and many people have bought similar compound kits and milled them for their SB9As.

Is there any disadvantage to that compound, such as difference in height from the other 2?

If you have the lever cross slide, it might mount on top of the turret style cross slide. A cut off would be nice on the rear, flipped upside down so you could part off parts from the rear.

What type of work do you plan on the bed turret ?

I believe you have a lead screw also, right ?

Alan

Click to expand...

I really dig the t-slots. I think I will probably use this compound most. I was thinking there was a wide variety of tooling, indicators, and such I could do there.

Not 100% sure about disadvantages. But the height of turret tool post is good. I centered up a tool in it this weekend.

I don't have the rear tool post, yet, lol. But i've seen it in a pic on the brochure for this machine. I either saw a pic or vid of someone with tool upside down like you're saying, since its on the other side of spindle. Pretty cool for sure. I'm not that high speed of an operator yet, but I would like to give it a shot.

Mostly I like the bed turret for two reasons. One is the power feed. I think cutting or boring in with the consistent pace of power feed will produce a nice finish. The 2nd is I can mount six different tools, and just rotate the head to which one I may want at the moment, be it a center, drill chuck, or even an open mt3 adapter, etc. I will probably never do production work as intended with it, is my guess. I do have some legit ideas on work and parts to make, which will include a mill also, But until I really dive into it, I'm not sure how its going to go with time and materials. At worst maybe refurbish old machines in my spare time. I wont make money, but I'll spend less than I would on booze and women, haha.

Yes I have the lead screw. Meant to have it in a couple of weeks ago, but keep getting side tracked with other projects. Also I need to fix two things first. One is the gear track on bottom side of way, apron drives from it back and forth on ways, I have a little too much gear lash between that gear track and apron. I can shim it down with lead screw in, but easier with it out. The 2nd is in the 2nd pic. The turret apron has a brass bushing with 3 bolts on each side. Those brass bushings work the same as the bushings in main apron for worm gear, and control end play, or thrust of worm gear. I did not realize that until I built main apron. I have a little more end play than I want on turret worm gear, so I am going to pop those brass bushings out and trim the flanges a little to tighten it up. Once done I'll get lead screw in.

Ken-Bergen said:

Do you have the rockers for that turret tool holder?

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I know I have atleast two. I Might have more, but need to go through more stuff to check. Could use more though I'm sure.

thomasutley said:

There's a detailed, step by step SBL Co. instruction sheet for installing a taper attachment on a machine that did not come with one from the factory. It's fairly tedious, several critical tenths measurements that are a PITA to take unless you're well stocked on indicator accessories, and potentially involves both some scraping and Babbitt pouring/re-pouring to align the drawbar with the bed clamp.

Totally worth having it installed, however, assuming it doesn't interfere with any of the turret functionality. If you can't find it by Googling, lemme know and I'll email a copy that I have saved somewhere.

My vote would be get both machines running if you have the floorspace to spare.

Click to expand...

Yea, I was thinking I read about it being a real pita. In thinking about it, plus getting some feed back, I am going to leave the taper attachment with its original lathe. And use turret/t-slot deal most. But I'll get the toolroom type compound cleaned up, painted, and fitted as an option to the turret machine. Not sure if I'll keep both lathes yet, I plan on restoring the t/a machine first than make a judgement call. My grand hope is to turn it around a lot faster than the first machine though. Hopefully inside of 6 months. But I really want my mill operational prior to that. I'm just finishing building a nice size shed, so I'll be able to clear some floor space.

What do they say ? Best laid plans of mice and men. . .

v8packard said:

I just bought another lathe last week (I know.. I know..) and it has the production style crosslide with t-slots, no compound. I did not think that was a big deal until I started playing with it today and realised I have gotten accustomed to using the compound to take real fine cuts at times and to thread. Not the end of the world, maybe it is just a matter of trying different procedures.

For someone that is not using a specific lathe setup every day, I think you would probably be fine with the production slide. I must admit the quick change tool post solidly bolted to it sure is rigid.

I would probably keep the taper attachment with it's original machine for reasons stated above. And do consider keeping the second machine and using it, I have three 16's and now a fourteen that can share tooling and accessories and I wonder how I used to get along with just one lathe.

Hope this helps,

Marc

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I think you really hit the nail on the head. What we become accustomed to using is a major factor. Some years back I ran a kwik way boring bar quite a bit. Knowing that particular machine, the jig for sharping bits, etc. Made it difficult to use another when the time came, the different machine was just junk ! Or so I told everyone, haha.

Interesting.. I run an automotive machine shop, and I have run Kwik Way bars in the past, as well as a Van Norman, a Rottler, and an AMC. When I started doing this work it was on a Kwik Way. I had long been sharpening bits by hand at that point, and the other guys in the shop would get mad at me when I did not sharpen with the jig. But then they liked the finish my bits left and just had me sharpen them. Haha. I currently use a Berco, and still sharpen by hand...

All the best,

Marc

texasgunsmith said:

I really dig the t-slots. I think I will probably use this compound most. I was thinking there was a wide variety of tooling, indicators, and such I could do there.

Click to expand...

The one thing you might want to do is measure the top of the cross slide to center line. You can look that up on the Aloris site to get an idea of which tool post would work on your lathe. The turret cross slide looks like it might be a tad higher. Probably nothing wrong with the tool post on it. A modern quick change would be convenient though.

texasgunsmith said:

Mostly I like the bed turret for two reasons. One is the power feed. I think cutting or boring in with the consistent pace of power feed will produce a nice finish. The 2nd is I can mount six different tools, and just rotate the head to which one I may want at the moment, be it a center, drill chuck, or even an open mt3 adapter, etc.

Click to expand...

While this is true, in practice it seems the tooling is different. When using the turret, most function is based on sliding, and is independent of the lead screw.

texasgunsmith said:

Yes I have the lead screw.

Click to expand...

Nice feature indeed. Many turret lathes don't have leadscrews on them. That forces you to thread with some type of die head in the turret. The smaller SB turrets were fitted on lathes with lead screws also.

traditional-tools said:

Nice feature indeed. Many turret lathes don't have leadscrews on them. That forces you to thread with some type of die head in the turret. The smaller SB turrets were fitted on lathes with lead screws also.

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I misunderstood your question. I was talking about the main lead screw, My latest pics don't show it in yet, so I thought that was your question.

I can't say I know all the designs of the turret tail stock ends. I don't think I am set up that way. My turret end is driven through the main lead screw which has its own apron. The bottom side of the center section of turret assemble has a gear track similar to the carriage apron uses. You can see that bottom side in post #30 here:
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...et-lathe-16-x6-restoration-317814/index2.html

I'm guessing I can't thread that way. Depending on how I set an internal gear I can go fast or slow on both forward and reverse of power feed. Which you can see on one of the tags in this pic:

I'm guessing I can't thread that way

Click to expand...

The understatement winner of the year.

texasgunsmith said:

I'm guessing I can't thread that way.

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You may be in for a learning curve in regard to turret tooling and understanding how it works.

For gunsmith work you'll definitely want the lead screw for threading, you can't do barrels easily with the turret.

EDIT: BTW, the old Warner & Swasey turret lathe books are pretty good. I have one at home I plan to scan, it's past copyright, but I still need to cut it apart and scan, I don't have a document feeder...however, I did scan a part of one book from them on leveling a lathe. Pretty good description in HTRAL, but this is useful also. The following is from "Turret Lathe Operators Manual", an amazing book in regard to turret lathe work. If you can find it on abebooks.com it's well worth it. I will scan it one day, but no guarantees when.

http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2261/6070.pdf

traditional-tools said:

You may be in for a learning curve in regard to turret tooling and understanding how it works.

For gunsmith work you'll definitely want the lead screw for threading, you can't do barrels easily with the turret.

EDIT: BTW, the old Warner & Swasey turret lathe books are pretty good. I have one at home I plan to scan, it's past copyright, but I still need to cut it apart and scan, I don't have a document feeder...however, I did scan a part of one book from them on leveling a lathe. Pretty good description in HTRAL, but this is useful also. The following is from "Turret Lathe Operators Manual", an amazing book in regard to turret lathe work. If you can find it on abebooks.com it's well worth it. I will scan it one day, but no guarantees when.

http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/2261/6070.pdf

Click to expand...

Pretty much the whole thing is a learning curve. Its actually one of the reasons I'm doing it. I never worked in a straight machine shop, or trained for it. When I was coming up in the world I started working at a diesel engine shop where I spent a big chunk of my career. We did our own cylinder boring, line bores, valve and seat grinding and such. Anyway I could read a mic and indicators and know what the numbers meant, and the difference between pluses and minuses, which I guess some guys have trouble with, haha. Well that fact led to a bit more of that type of work dropping in my lap.

I think it may be a little late in life for a career change, but I have been considering taking a night class for machine shop work. As it is, I do a lot of reading and research, and I'm not scared of hands on trial and error. I tend to do what interests me in my free time, be it firearms, machines or whatever. I do have ideas on what I'd like to do with all this, but they are pretty fluid and subject to change. Pretty much depends on my interest, aggravation level, and financial feasibility.

As far as gunsmith work goes. I'm not interested in fixing people's guns. I did a bit in the past. Way too much time and grief. A two hour job, will cost you 5 hours of time with all the questions, phone calls, emails etc. I like people, but its impossible to get anything done. Second, I don't work on every type of firearm. I pretty much stick with European com block rifles. Specs and parts sizes may vary depending on country, or even the same country, but they are in principle a similar design.

I don't necessarily need a lathe to make these, but I expect it to make my life easier on builds. AK-47's barrel threads are 14x1 metric reverse thread. I can't cut that on my lathe. But I usually would buy a barrel already threaded. I do have a setup for threading by hand. Its basically a pilot that goes into barrel and allows you to start your die on the pilot for proper alignment. It works, I've done it. Also some rifles do not get threaded, the sight block/flash suppressor combo is pressed on and pinned.

In fact all the parts attached to barrel are press fit and pinned. The barrels being stepped down in size for each consecutive piece. Where i can use the lathe is when I need to trim barrel diameter for where it presses into receiver, or for each part, as they are never identical. Also for making the press fit pins, as they often need to be a custom size if parts were drilled previously.

The first pic shows two rifles. The black one to the rear I did a bunch of custom work to, but did not build. The rifle in front, with wood stock, I built. I used a press, a drill press and a chain saw, lol. Joking about the chainsaw. With the pieces press fit, and aligned, and assembly press fit into receiver I use end mills to drill though. Using my drill press as a vertical lathe I cut the pins to needed diameter, and pressed them in. There's a bit more to it, with setting headspace etc. But you get the idea.

With the other pics you can see the various parts and where they are pinned. And thanks for the info on the turret lathes.

texasgunsmith said:

Pretty much the whole thing is a learning curve. Its actually one of the reasons I'm doing it. I never worked in a straight machine shop, or trained for it.

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Me neither, and there's many others like that here. There are a lot of well seasoned machinists, many whom have spent the majority of their life making precision parts on manual lathes as well...This South Bend forum is a bit more forgiving than some of the other forums, in regard to "professionals". Just tread lightly when you stray outside the SB forum.

texasgunsmith said:

I think it may be a little late in life for a career change, but I have been considering taking a night class for machine shop work.

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You could take a night class and not do a career change, no problem there. I've wanted to take classes also

texasgunsmith said:

As it is, I do a lot of reading and research, and I'm not scared of hands on trial and error.

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No reason to be scared, but with a 16" lathe you probably want to be somewhat patient while going through the learning curve.

texasgunsmith said:

I don't necessarily need a lathe to make these, but I expect it to make my life easier on builds.

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Maybe a lathe *might* make it easier, but a mill would be way more useful. In general I feel a mill is way more useful for most firearms work, more so than a lathe. And especially with modern barrels sold so inexpensively. Most of these are just toys in comparison to a precision bolt action rifle. ARs and AKs are child's play to make. Most people that call themselves a gunsmith are really just parts assemblers. Don't get me wrong, both Kalashnikov and Stoner were great minds for coming up with their respective designs, but Browning was in a different class of mind. All offered improved designs however.

texasgunsmith said:

In fact all the parts attached to barrel are press fit and pinned.

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Which is to say that these modern barrels that are crapped out don't need the headspace set for the most part. It's rare that the headspace would be off unless the barrel is badly worn. You could do that on the lathe, but yeah the barrel extension is set for the most part, and doesn't need to be changed from the factory. It's not critical to check and many gunsmiths don't even have gauges these days...a real shame...This is why I don't have much respect for these modern gunsmiths that build ARs and AKs. Even *I* can do that...LOL Real gunsmith work is becoming a rare bird.

A 1911 is quite a bit more challenging, and to me a precision bolt action is about as good as gunsmithing can get.