need help setting up heavy 10 in MA

juha_teuvonnen · Mar 27, 2018

I recently bought a 1940s vintage heavy 10. The ways and the lead screw seem to be in good shape. The lathe was seemingly cleaned and freshly painted and never ran after that. I was told that the head bearings were replaced, but the new ones need to be shimmed and adjusted properly. I was told that the under drive was converted to sealed bearings. The lathe seems to have brand new stainless steel fasteners. I seem to remember that mixing regular steel with stainless is not a good idea, not sure if it will create problems with the lathe.

I would like to pay a knowledgeable person to come over, inspect the lathe, suggest what maintenance and repair it needs, and at the very least shim and adjust the head and help me level it. The lathe is in Lexington MA.

Suggestions on how to educate myself and what to look at would be appreciated. I am reasonably mechanically inclined, I did a bunch of car engine work and rebuilds, but I have never rebuilt or serviced a lathe, only ran them.

My email is the same as my I'd on this forum at Yahoo dot com.

Tony Quiring · Mar 27, 2018

There are rebuild kits with a good manual, the manual is available by itself as well.

Others will identify it was we cannot remember the details as it has been too long since we got ours...we have eaten since then...

Fasteners should not matter much but first get the manual and do a "virtual rebuild" meaning start at page 1 and read all instructions one task at a time and use them to closely inspect your machine.

Tearing it apart is not difficult and could be worth the effort to both learn how the innards function as well as confirming it was properly done.

How to run a lathe is the name of the publication by South bend of which there are many versions, Google it and you can find many free sources to download copies to read as well.

Others will provide much more info soon...

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337Z using Tapatalk

thomasutley · Mar 27, 2018

Rules of thumb for mixing stainless with other metals:

#1: Keep the exposed surface area of the stainless part small relative to the surface area of the non-stainless mating part

#2: Keep the finished assembly away from liquids such as water that can act as an electrolyte carrier to conduct excess galvanic charge current flow (oil helps)

This is greatly oversimplified and depends primarily on how far apart the two materials are on the galvanic spectrum.

m-lud · Mar 27, 2018

The SBL Workshop
This link will help I. D. your lathe by serial number and give a wealth of information.

South Bend Lathe Works - Publication Reprints | VintageMachinery.org
Pick a later dated copy of how to run a lathe to read.

Also so get the manual Tony speaks of. Setting the bearings and getting to know the lathe is a good primer for running it. Basic machine with close tolarences. It's all pretty much strait forward.
Dive in there. Don't remove those two spindle bearing caps without removing the two center screws first.
Ouch. Get the manual!

juha_teuvonnen · Mar 27, 2018

mllud22 said:
The SBL Workshop
This link will help I. D. your lathe by serial number and give a wealth of information.

South Bend Lathe Works - Publication Reprints | VintageMachinery.org
Pick a later dated copy of how to run a lathe to read.

Also so get the manual Tony speaks of. Setting the bearings and getting to know the lathe is a good primer for running it. If you have to pay someone to work on it you may have picked the wrong hobby. I'm not being a jerk. Just truthful. Basic machine with close tolarences. It's all pretty much strait forward.
Dive in there. Don't remove those two spindle bearing caps without removing the two center screws first.
Ouch. Get the manual!

I don't think you are being a jerk, in fact, I think you are making an excellent point. My only prior experience with lathes was in an environment where someone else did all the maintenance. I plan on learning how to service the lathe myself, but I figured I could use some "adult supervision" while I learn. When I did engine building, there were a number of subtle things that were not covered in the manuals, but needed attention. Every time I built an engine that I haven't built before, I had somebody who has done it before look over my shoulder. In one case it saved me from an expensive mistake (the manual was wrong). I expected that there were going to be similar subtle things with lathes. I don't mind paying for a few hours of an experienced machinists time, to acquire the knowledge.

Looks like my machine was made in 1945, based on the serial number. Do I really need to pay South Bend to get the card with details? I should be able to figure the spindle diameter and nose taper by measuring it. What else would be on the card that would be useful?

I read through the write-up in the sticky thread on rebuilding a 13. It looks like a larger version of 10 and the procedure seems reasonably straightforward. What is the manual that I need to get? There seem to be more than a few options, one on Amazon for $39, some downloadable versions as well. What's a good one?

juha_teuvonnen · Mar 27, 2018

Is this the source of a good rebuild kit and manual?

stevewb | eBay Stores

m-lud · Mar 27, 2018

thomasutley said:
Rules of thumb for mixing stainless with other metals:

#1: Keep the exposed surface area of the stainless part small relative to the surface area of the non-stainless mating part

#2: Keep the finished assembly away from liquids such as water that can act as an electrolyte carrier to conduct excess galvanic charge current flow (oil helps)

This is greatly oversimplified and depends primarily on how far apart the two materials are on the galvanic spectrum.

I have the habit of using antisieze on everything. It usually has a copper or aluminum base.
That adds another metal to the mix. Thomas do you know how antisieze affects electrolysis? Misspell.
I know it prevents rust.

jim rozen · Mar 27, 2018

I'm far away so I can't show up at your doorstep - however I do know that at one time Minuteman Tech had several
machining courses.

Possibly somebody from there could lend a hand?

Also you might consider signing up for one of their courses, if they still offer machining.

packardbill · Mar 27, 2018

How many fasteners are we talking about....4 spindle bearing cap screws and the 2 saddle to apron screws? I would just replace them with regular socket head cap screws. Did they go crazy and replace the rack screws and quick change box screws also?. In my opinion, stainless in cast iron is worse than stainless in steel. If the rack mounting screws are stainless I'd just remove and coat with never-sieze. If the quick change mounting screws are stainless,replace them....Now, on some heavy tens, there is one of the quick change mounting bolts that cannot be removed without removing the headstock, so be prepared. You may have to reset the headstock, not an awful job, but it is more work. PB

juha_teuvonnen · Mar 28, 2018

The spindle cap screws are the original ones. Stainless screws were used to bolt the ways to the base and legs and to assemble the apron.

The lathe is a reasonably oil-rich environment, so galvanic corrosion of cast iron is not my biggest concern. In my past experience, stainless fasteners tend to "weld themselves in place" so to speak and become extremely hard to remove. I am debating between using anit-size and just buying new fasteners. They can't be all that expensive. What grade should I go for? Grade 8 or?

v8packard · Mar 28, 2018

In my experience with South Bends, it seems the majority of the conventional fasteners are no more than grade 2 hardware. The socket headed cap screws are higher alloy, buy the rest of the fasteners I have seen have not been anything more than grade 2. Does not seem like many would be heavily loaded. Grade 5 or 8 would be more than adequate.

One thing about fasteners, these days the typical bolts found in local hardware stores (if there are any real hardware stores left) and big box stores is imported, and very inconsistent in quality. It can be pretty tough to find certain fasteners that are not imported anymore, but it might be worth your time to seek out suppliers that are stocking better quality. I know it is a pain, but so is chasing threads on new bolts and throwing out a bunch of new washers in a box because they are junk.

Marc

m-lud · Mar 28, 2018

I think Napa has good quality fasteners but pricey. Tractor supply has a good selection of fasteners.
All the bolts on my lathe came our fairly easy and looked fine to reuse. The previous owner thought stainless was better in your case. Grade 8 may not be necesary but aren't expensive and are usually better threads.
When buying bolts I get a nut out of the bin and hand thread it on the ones I'm buying. That way you don't get home with a bad thread. It's happen to me. Going back for one bolt stinks.

juha_teuvonnen · Mar 28, 2018

The bolts are marked F593C THE. Stainless, roughly comparable to grade 2. Made in Taiwan by a large and reputable manufacturer. I will be replacing them all. The guy who attempted the rebuild made a few mistakes. There was no anti-seize on any of the bolts. Stainless has a galling problem. It's is only rust-resistant due to chromium oxide on the surface. When you torque the stainless bolts you can strip the oxide film from the threads. The stainless bolt will oxidize again, welding itself to the hole this time. While I know how to use taps and helicoils, this is an unnecessary adventure I would prefer to avoid. I will be replacing stainless fasteners with grade 8. The price difference is small, but the quality is generally better. Good sources for ordering quality bolts would be appreciated. What finish did the original bolts have? Black phosphate?

I ordered the full kit, manual, oils and felts. I tried to operate the apron and I am not in love with how it feels. The price I paid for the lathe was right, and the lead screw looks good. I don't mind rebuilding the apron if if I have to. Looks like the adventure is about to begin. Gotta read the manual first.

iwananew10K · Mar 28, 2018

The eBay manual is great but it's not an operation manual...so do not be disappointed...no matter what it will be a valuable reference as you go.

Just take things nice and slow...lathes are easy to learn to run but can hurt you quick, so do be careful...which you seem to want to do anyways, I suspect you will be fine....along with HTRAl(HOW to run a lathe) this may be useful...

http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/1617/3533.pdf

Enjoy your machine.

v8packard · Mar 28, 2018

juha_teuvonnen said:
I will be replacing stainless fasteners with grade 8. The price difference is small, but the quality is generally better. Good sources for ordering quality bolts would be appreciated. What finish did the original bolts have? Black phosphate?

The quality of bolts made by companies like Nucor (n head marking) or Lake Erie (LE head marking) will be very good. Others, I am not so sure of any more. There must be some that are quality, I just don't know. Do you have Fastenal by you? Ordering from many companies usually means buying in standard quantities, but if that works for you check out McMaster Carr, Class C (MSC), Tifco, Lawson, and Kimball Midwest.

As far as finish, seems like the original bolts are usually plain, nothing on them. Not even phosphate. Most of what you are likely to buy these days will be either zinc plated with a clear or yellow conversion coating, or black oxide.

Marc

juha_teuvonnen · Apr 1, 2018

Looks like the person who owned the large before me attempted to paint the apron, gearbox and other parts without properly disassembling them. The killing points are clogged with paint.

How do I deal with oversray on pulleys, gears and handles? Paint stripper? Polishing off?

I will be taking the machine completely apart. Any tips on what to pay particular attention to?

The crossfeed and compound seem to have a bunch of free play, but the leaders seems in good shape. I will need to inspect the nuts and screws once I take the apron apart.

Do I need brass inches for driving pins out? My manual is still in the mail.

Tony Quiring · Apr 1, 2018

A couple things...

The bolts originally were from the 40 ' s and are likely the best that small budget could buy...

Meaning if only grade 2 was needed then that was used.

We used original hardware for headstock and apron as the look was better but for bolting the legs and other places and in your case additional bolts we suggest a trip to TSC.

They sell by the pound and they have grade 5 and 8, we used the gold colored grade 7 as we liked the look and others may prefer the dark colored grade 5.

There are really no places in the machine that require higher than grade 2 so it matters not much.

For stripping paint many options.

If no rust one can get the 3 pack of grill cleaner at sams club.

It is 3 quarts or so of strong oven cleaner with hand pump sprayer for 9 bucks.

Spray it on and let it work.

Will eat the paint well.

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m-lud · Apr 1, 2018

When you disassemble keep the parts to each section separate. A brass punch to drive the taper pins out will bend and mushroom the end. Buy some good quality steel punches. The tapered pins can take a good smack. As you probably know a good sharp smack is more effective. You may have to grind your punches before your done. You may cuss a pin or two. Good part organization helps. I if you have room lay out some cardboard and lay parts out as they come off. Like you would an engine. It's pretty basic mechanics but take time to do a precision close tolerance reassembly to have a nice lathe.Precision as the practical use of the lathe allows. Some wear has to be lived with. Unless the budget is large.I set paragraphs when typing this post then after submitting the post its one long paragraph. Edit doesn't help

need help setting up heavy 10 in MA

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