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  1. #21
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    Very much looking forward to your impressions.

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    Default Delivery countdown

    Quote Originally Posted by paulsomlo View Post
    Very much looking forward to your impressions.
    Yeah, I am pretty excited and nervous about it. It's a big gamble for a small business that HAS to get Product out. The SB9A on risers (See thread "What have you made FOR your South Bend") is doing the job for the 12" products very well, but dammit, it was made when I was in the Second Grade and Eisenhower's photo was beaming down at me from the wall, you know...
    My primary concern is facing. The SB9A with the needle thrust conversion is producing cosmetically perfect finishes without the float banding you get from the OEM fiber washer, because the needle bearings can be set with zero lash. Will the tapered roller bearings in the new 10K be good enough, or will there be harmonic banding? Well, the D1-3 backplates are in and I am modifying my special chucks and tooling, and will move the Jenix DRO over to the new 10K as soon as it's bolted down and leveled.

    The Atlas 12" was just not up to getting the finishes I need because of the mitre driven crossfeed at 1:1 leadscrew ratio. So I got a used saddle assembly on Fleabay and converted it to a servomotor drive. I admit to being prejudiced about die cast zinc gears. It just BOTHERS ME, even though some of the ZAMAC alloys have good properties, run quieter, have lower Coefficient of Friction, etc.etc.
    Give me iron. I'm OLD, I guess.
    1911A1, not Glock. That kind of thing.

    36 Hours and counting.
    Radios Off, Main On, Fuel to fullest tank, Travel crane is set up, base table, 1 ton capacity, was delivered the other day, bribe for drivers put aside, wiring done, Samuel Smith Imperial Stout is in stock for afterward. Lots of it, for an Industrial Grade Drunk.

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    FIRST IMPRESSIONS:

    First because of what I have to say, I need to explain something. I respect my 60-year-old South Bend because not only has it supported me for the last 15 years, it worked like a rented mule in the R&D department of a Fortune 500 where I worked. All the technicians and engineers used it, so it was pretty much the Town Bike.
    The Company had bought it used some time in the 1970's. I was on the "Machine Shop List" of non-machinists who were allowed into the "real" shop. I got to run everything sooner or later, and had a lot of respect for the Clausings and the Hardinges, and would love to have had one.

    So this is not a SB Fanboy rave. Because it was not made in South Bend, I approached it with suspicion and apprehension, especially seeing certain Asian lathes in WT's local showroom (And getting asked to leave).

    OK, Cosmoline Cleaning observations:
    This is a South Bend. Users of the 9's, the Heavy 10's, and the 10K's will automatically reach for the feed clutch, change box, feed direction levers, by instinct.
    A Meehanite casting with hardened bedways. Saddle and compound ways are scraped, the bedway V's are "Precision ground". We'll see about that when critical parts are made.
    Tomorrow it will be leveled, bolted, and the Breakin procedure for the gears and bearings will be run.
    Now, remembering I have seen new machinery come into my employer's shops for many decades, and not just because it's my new lathe, what's the Form, Fit and Finish?
    I would have been happy if it was like my Ford. Everything fits, the doors close, it looks OK. Recognizing different manufactured items can vary day to day or shift to shift, I have to say, honestly, this unit is a f*cking Jaguar. It's beautiful. (If it runs like my wife's old one with Lucas parts, you will not need the Web to hear me cursing.)

    Normally, when I buy a tool, I'll tell it, "OK. I paid for you, and you are going to WORK like a rented mule!".

    This is the first time I ever bought a tool where I thought, "Am I good enough to deserve this?"

    Now, all this could completely collapse when I get all the setup and tooling done, and get to work on Product.
    If there is any deficiency, I'll tell it straight.
    We all know that looks does not guarantee performance-Ask any divorce lawyer.

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  5. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.Rolfe View Post
    FIRST IMPRESSIONS:

    First because of what I have to say, I need to explain something. I respect my 60-year-old South Bend because not only has it supported me for the last 15 years, it worked like a rented mule in the R&D department of a Fortune 500 where I worked. All the technicians and engineers used it, so it was pretty much the Town Bike.
    The Company had bought it used some time in the 1970's. I was on the "Machine Shop List" of non-machinists who were allowed into the "real" shop. I got to run everything sooner or later, and had a lot of respect for the Clausings and the Hardinges, and would love to have had one.

    So this is not a SB Fanboy rave. Because it was not made in South Bend, I approached it with suspicion and apprehension, especially seeing certain Asian lathes in WT's local showroom (And getting asked to leave).

    OK, Cosmoline Cleaning observations:
    This is a South Bend. Users of the 9's, the Heavy 10's, and the 10K's will automatically reach for the feed clutch, change box, feed direction levers, by instinct.
    A Meehanite casting with hardened bedways. Saddle and compound ways are scraped, the bedway V's are "Precision ground". We'll see about that when critical parts are made.
    Tomorrow it will be leveled, bolted, and the Breakin procedure for the gears and bearings will be run.
    Now, remembering I have seen new machinery come into my employer's shops for many decades, and not just because it's my new lathe, what's the Form, Fit and Finish?
    I would have been happy if it was like my Ford. Everything fits, the doors close, it looks OK. Recognizing different manufactured items can vary day to day or shift to shift, I have to say, honestly, this unit is a f*cking Jaguar. It's beautiful. (If it runs like my wife's old one with Lucas parts, you will not need the Web to hear me cursing.)

    Normally, when I buy a tool, I'll tell it, "OK. I paid for you, and you are going to WORK like a rented mule!".

    This is the first time I ever bought a tool where I thought, "Am I good enough to deserve this?"

    Now, all this could completely collapse when I get all the setup and tooling done, and get to work on Product.
    If there is any deficiency, I'll tell it straight.
    We all know that looks does not guarantee performance-Ask any divorce lawyer.
    I'm very glad to hear your first impressions are positive and look forward to what I'm sure will be an objective evaluation of this machine. Did you happen to also buy the made in USA cabinet base?
    David

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    Quote Originally Posted by old_dave View Post
    I'm very glad to hear your first impressions are positive and look forward to what I'm sure will be an objective evaluation of this machine. Did you happen to also buy the made in USA cabinet base?
    David
    No, I had hit my budget limit, and just could not spring for the price they wanted. I bought a machine table rated 2000# from McMaster, and lagbolted 1/2" A/C plywood to the top to acoustically deaden it, painted it with epoxy enamel to resist machine oil.

    One token bitch: Plan on half a day to get the Cosmoline stuff off. They REALLY did not want it to rust. Remember the last chuck you bought? Remember how tedious it was? Oh, man. The pulleys, the lead screws, on every metal surface...what a mess.
    The delivery and unloading went well, so I am a little ahead of schedule. I hope to complete the cleaning, run-in procedure, and check all the gibs tomorrow and ask the dial indicators their objective opinions soon.

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    Today is the 16th

    Give you a few days to a week (or two) and then you can post some photos of it up and running.

    Buck

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    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    Today is the 16th

    Give you a few days to a week (or two) and then you can post some photos of it up and running.

    Buck
    We are documenting it. My wife was shooting pictures of the unloading, when the truck arrived.
    "Two monkies f*******a football".

    It will be a pleasure to post them.

    Followup. To no one's surprise, the lathe cuts metal. Feed is 96TPI, 216 RPM. 6061T6, tool is PCD dry.
    runtest1.jpg

    Found something I did not like though:
    1) Ball oiler on Feedscrew bearing missing.

    2) I HATE that induction motor. HATE IT. HATE IT. Only One horsepower, but the thing must weigh a hundred pounds and is the size of a watermelon. It HUMS like a city-sized unit substation.

    When I bought my miller for very little it was because it ran on weird 440V 50Hz 3 phase power. I removed and discarded the motor and did some machining, and replaced it with a PMDC 3/4HP motor. Easy fix.
    The SB ModA has a PMDC 1 HP Baldor motor, and you CANNOT hear the machine in the next room.

    When I run a tool I want to HEAR the tool and workpiece interface, and hear the feedgears running so I have a handle on load. I can't hear myself think with this WELDER hanging on the back of the machine.
    The lathe itself is very quiet. I'll make an adapter plate on the rotary table and give that AC POS to someone who needs a mooring anchor, at my earliest convenience.

    And when I do that, there is a lot of Lawyer Engineering that will go away as well. Ask me how the belts are tracking...I have NO IDEA because to PROTECT THE CHILDREN there is an interlock that kicks the panic relay if you try to look. Same with the gear covers. Same with millions of Safety Stickers. They are INSULTING. Don't stick hands in gears. Don't stick necktie into chuck. Don't stick penis into spindle bore. Wash your hands before dinner. Pick up your room. Wipe from front to back.

    Don't you all agree that a well-running machine makes beautiful music? I want to hear the MUSIC, without that loud 60Hz bagpipe drone.
    Last edited by J.Rolfe; 09-17-2013 at 08:07 AM.

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    Default Day One: WORK.

    d1cleanup.jpg
    Quote Originally Posted by J.Rolfe View Post
    We are documenting it. My wife was shooting pictures of the unloading, when the truck arrived.
    "Two monkies f*******a football".

    It will be a pleasure to post them.

    ...Don't you all agree that a well-running machine makes beautiful music? I want to hear the MUSIC, without that loud 60Hz bagpipe drone.
    OK, Time for it to get to work. First I had to make a quick spindle bore adapter to fit my vacuum swivel. I use vacuum chucks for much of my work.

    spindadapt.jpg

    Now to clean up a D1-3 backplate so I can attach one of my fixtures to it.
    d1cleanup.jpg

    I will actually try to run a product tomorrow. If it passes my facing flatness specs and cosmetic finish requirements, then all will be rainbows and unicorns pooping skittles.

    d1pilot.jpg

    Boring to accept centering stub of my vacuum plate.

    Either I am quieting down and getting used to tuning the motor hum out, I am going deaf, or the motor is quieting , so I am more mellow now. What got me was walking back and forth using both lathes today, and having the sixty-year-old antique rigged for silent running while the new expensive Queen Of The Shop gave me no peace.

    I REALLY LIKE the D1-3 system.

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    Interesting comment on the motor supplied. The lathe we got from "over there" which was not the high $$ South Bend branded piece but the plain old run of the mill machine had a motor on it that vibrated so badly that it made a herringbone pattern in everything we turned. We finally put the motor in the scrap pile where it belonged and changed the machine over to a 3 phase motor and a VFD. The wiring was a little hard to figure out because of all the relays in the electrical box but we prevailed and what was a useless machine became quite a solid citizen which continues to make accurate parts with a good finish. It appears to me that the folks "over there" don't really care very much if the motors they turn out are electrically balanced or not. I know that they can make a smooth running motor because a mill we got from the same place had a really nice motor installed on it. But it wasn't the generic "watermelon" sized piece but a rather compact and nicely built motor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vandis View Post
    Interesting comment on the motor supplied. The lathe we got from "over there" which was not the high $$ South Bend branded piece but the plain old run of the mill machine had a motor on it that vibrated so badly that it made a herringbone pattern in everything we turned. We finally put the motor in the scrap pile where it belonged and changed the machine over to a 3 phase motor and a VFD. The wiring was a little hard to figure out because of all the relays in the electrical box but we prevailed and what was a useless machine became quite a solid citizen which continues to make accurate parts with a good finish. It appears to me that the folks "over there" don't really care very much if the motors they turn out are electrically balanced or not. I know that they can make a smooth running motor because a mill we got from the same place had a really nice motor installed on it. But it wasn't the generic "watermelon" sized piece but a rather compact and nicely built motor.
    Thank you for letting me know about that. I will watch for that pattern tomorrow when I give it its critical test. It is amazing how much the tiniest disturbance can wreck a perfect finish. Even the harmonics from different gear combinations can do it...We went through that with the Atlas, and it drove us crazy.
    I think the Red Dragon Noodle & Motor Pty, Ltd. thinks it all marketing. Cast iron is pretty cheap there, so if the motor looks BIG AND POWERFUL, then it must be so. If the rotor is a few grams unbalanced, or one leg has the wrong capacitor, it's OK.
    The motor on this thing is almost obscene in size for its rated power. You can see it in the pictures online on the SB or Grizzly sites.
    I do not have 3 Phase on my street, so it's easier, rather than to get into converters, to spend the same money on a PMDC motor and controller.
    Gotta move the Jenix DRO to the new lathe before I get really serious about making Product. Long days here, the last two, but since the truck only showed up yesterday afternoon, I am pleased with the progress. No one got hurt unloading or moving it, and that's the important thing.

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    J.Rolfe - Actually, I'd rather have a beefier motor than a lightweight one. That motor is TEFC, and they are always bigger and heavier because of the cast enclosure. I didn't see anywhere what the frame size
    is? It should be on the motor plate. TEFC motors are quite loud, because of the air rushing over the outside, but I am a bit surprised about the 60 Hz hum. That doesn't sound quit right.
    If you put a custom motor on there, you could have variable speed. Sound like a nice addition to the lathe. For the money, I am surprised no name-brand motor. Like a lot of folks, I am
    curious to see how it works out. I hope they used good quality bearings in it. I see that they are tapered roller, so I assume they are adjustable???

    Good Luck,

    Jon P.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jpevner View Post
    J.Rolfe - Actually, I'd rather have a beefier motor than a lightweight one. That motor is TEFC, and they are always bigger and heavier because of the cast enclosure. I didn't see anywhere what the frame size
    is? It should be on the motor plate. TEFC motors are quite loud, because of the air rushing over the outside, but I am a bit surprised about the 60 Hz hum. That doesn't sound quit right.
    If you put a custom motor on there, you could have variable speed. Sound like a nice addition to the lathe. For the money, I am surprised no name-brand motor. Like a lot of folks, I am
    curious to see how it works out. I hope they used good quality bearings in it. I see that they are tapered roller, so I assume they are adjustable???

    Good Luck,

    Jon P.
    The VFD drive on my 9 works great and is very quiet. It's nice having variable speed.

    Dave

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mcandrew1894 View Post
    The VFD drive on my 9 works great and is very quiet. It's nice having variable speed.

    Dave
    I find myself reaching for the speed pot that isn't there on the new lathe! I even converted the old Atlas to the PMDC.
    One thing I love about variable speed is "Tuning the chip". On some of my products I use a cyclone dust and turning removal system and when everything is balanced just right I have miles of ribbon neatly coiled up in the collector.
    I mostly use PCD for everything, but love the Kyocera ceramics. Amazing inserts..Go right from 6061 Al to cast iron to 6-4 Ti with the same tool, just adjusting feed and speed. Chemically inert, don't react with anything, and not soluble in anything. Can't use the diamond with iron.

    One of my PMDC's is TEFC..the one on "Old Faithful", the SB9 ModA. It is a little bigger than the one in the miller, but still compact..(a bit longer form factor) from the Boat Anchor on the new 10K.
    I foresee myself doing something about that before too long.

    Probably Norinco steel-cored 7.62X39.

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    " but I am a bit surprised about the 60 Hz hum. That doesn't sound quit right."

    They probably wound it for 50Hz then did Crimes Against Engineering with capacitors or taps or something, just to sell them everywhere.
    It fits the usual MO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.Rolfe View Post
    " but I am a bit surprised about the 60 Hz hum. That doesn't sound quit right."

    They probably wound it for 50Hz then did Crimes Against Engineering with capacitors or taps or something, just to sell them everywhere.
    It fits the usual MO.
    I'm very much looking forward to the photos of your new lathe, any chance of a photo of your " Product" ? Joe

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    i can appreciate the "tuning the chip" comment - it`s so nice to be able to adjust things mid-stride to find the sweet spot where the chips are rolling off like butter.

    it can be pretty amazing what a little speed and feed adjustment can make.

    consistant cutting = accurate work!

    too many of us starting out (me included) think to get good finished and consistant diameters we have to go to a super fine feed - not so!

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    Default OK, 10K. You are HIRED.

    OK, the honeymoon is over. As soon as the DRO is moved over, I am going to work your sweet tail off.
    urhired.jpg

    Test run was at 1200 RPM, and way too coarse a feed, emulating one of my machinists whom I pay piecework...Like when I am not watching.

    This piece is 8" Diameter, .255 thick.

    Joe, these are laps for the gemcutting industry.

    GEARLOOSE.COM- LAPIDARY PROCESS INNOVATION.

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    South Bend used to sell their new lathes without a motor.
    You either supplied your own or ordered one from their selection and paid extra.
    Maybe a policy they should use now. USA motors only.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vandis View Post
    Interesting comment on the motor supplied. The lathe we got from "over there" which was not the high $$ South Bend branded piece but the plain old run of the mill machine ....
    I was talking about this with some friends that came by. Looking up at the top, I see this is called "Practical Machinist". Looking at the used lathes on Fleabay, CL, and other ads, we are talking about 2K used for something in decent condition that runs and still has the ghost of scraping on the bedways. From machine dealers, it's more.
    If I took my shop rate and applied it to all the work I put into the SB9a over the years to optimize it for my processes and to keep it running I bet I paid for a Clausing or Myford.

    If it were a hobby machine, it would be different, but "Practical" to me means payback time. If I had bought one of those things I had seen at the local showroom, I probably could have gotten good product out of it eventually, after a lot of tweaking. But every hour of that is an hour the machine is not producing product, and with something that is always not quite right, you are always working under sub-optimal conditions.
    "A good operator on a bad machine will always make a better product than a bad operator on a good machine" is true. But the good operator still has to work harder.
    As you can probably tell from the progress 48 hours after the machine was delivered, I work hard, and I work long hours. A machine that does not have to be tweaked all the time might give me a break. That's what I am hoping, anyway.

    Another issue is an argument from my wife: "BUY the thing! You have never bought anything! People give you broken mowers and snowblowers they gave up on, cars that needed to be restored, etc.etc. Now GROW UP and give yourself a break!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by 47nomad View Post
    South Bend used to sell their new lathes without a motor.
    You either supplied your own or ordered one from their selection and paid extra.
    Maybe a policy they should use now. USA motors only.
    If they had offered the option of a Leeson or a Baldor I would have jumped on it like a duck on a June Bug!
    (Disclosure) Former IBEW member.


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