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  1. #41
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    While a few Baldor's are still actually made in the USA, most are not- they have 26 factories worldwide, including in China and Mexico.
    Same with Leeson- although more of their line is US made. But they have factories in Mexico, and perhaps elsewhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ries View Post
    While a few Baldor's are still actually made in the USA, most are not- they have 26 factories worldwide, including in China and Mexico.
    Same with Leeson- although more of their line is US made. But they have factories in Mexico, and perhaps elsewhere.
    I am not surprised, but can't shake the feeling someone just told me Santa Claus is a wino in a rented suit.
    There's just no getting away from it.
    I should shut up. Nearly half my business is export, and somewhere in the world someone is bitching about a Yankee working cheap, I suppose.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.Rolfe View Post
    Thank you for letting me know about that. I will watch for that pattern tomorrow when I give it its critical test. It is amazing how much the tiniest disturbance can wreck a perfect finish. Even the harmonics from different gear combinations can do it...We went through that with the Atlas, and it drove us crazy.
    I think the Red Dragon Noodle & Motor Pty, Ltd. thinks it all marketing. Cast iron is pretty cheap there, so if the motor looks BIG AND POWERFUL, then it must be so. If the rotor is a few grams unbalanced, or one leg has the wrong capacitor, it's OK.
    The motor on this thing is almost obscene in size for its rated power. You can see it in the pictures online on the SB or Grizzly sites.
    I do not have 3 Phase on my street, so it's easier, rather than to get into converters, to spend the same money on a PMDC motor and controller.
    Gotta move the Jenix DRO to the new lathe before I get really serious about making Product. Long days here, the last two, but since the truck only showed up yesterday afternoon, I am pleased with the progress. No one got hurt unloading or moving it, and that's the important thing.
    The herringbone pattern is common on all of these SB lathes running on single phase power. Go to a VFD or normal 3 phase and it goes away.
    Steve

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    Quote Originally Posted by steve-l View Post
    The herringbone pattern is common on all of these SB lathes running on single phase power. Go to a VFD or normal 3 phase and it goes away.
    Steve
    First thing I do is convert to DC PM motors with good FW controllers
    That's probably why I never saw it here. Everybody's talking about VFD..I guess I am old-fashioned.

  5. #45
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    Did you get a chance to see how flat/convex it was? Have you tried a taper test on a long part?

    p.s. I got a kick out of your "DOMINATRIX(tm)" product. You must get some odd customer queries

    regards,

    Jon

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    Quote Originally Posted by jpevner View Post
    Did you get a chance to see how flat/convex it was? Have you tried a taper test on a long part?

    p.s. I got a kick out of your "DOMINATRIX(tm)" product. You must get some odd customer queries

    regards,

    Jon
    Hey, That's my name. Jon. No, I have not tried a long part yet.

    To get a part really flat using a vaccum plate, everything has to be exactly right for O Ring compression space, etc, In the following picture, you can see the vacuum swivel on the left, entering the spindle. I use the hollow spindle as a duct. Anything wrong and it dishes or domes.

    Plane Parallel was .0015 measuring at three locations around the perimeter. Flatness center-to-edge, I don't expect anyone to believe me because I don't myself. See, the old SB had worn bedways both on the bed and cross slide, so this was limiting me, and the biggest single reason I opted to retire Old Faithful.

    For flatness...(ready with the diapers) NO LIGHT under a Starrett straightedge. Yeah, I know. On an 8" disk, I don't believe it either, but honest, I'm sober as a judge. Even .002 would be OK for most customers, but there are all kinds of people using my products, and I even had a guy use an interferometer.

    As to the name of that product, No, there were a few jokes about it here and there, but the customers all know me and have heard it all and worse, before.
    My biggest dealer is in Australia, and there's no shocking THEM at all.

    Anyway, here's today's work:

    dro918.jpg

    HS, I just realized 48 Hours ago we were uncrating it. I needa drink. That's it for today. Slowing down.

    sbarrives.jpg
    Last edited by J.Rolfe; 09-18-2013 at 02:53 PM. Reason: added good stuff

  7. #47
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    Jon;

    That sounds good. As I recall, lathe manufacturers normally scrape the machine so that it turns slightly convex when new. I think the purpose for this,
    is that they spec flatness, and they scrape to one side of the spec, so that the length of wear within the spec is doubled. I didn't notice
    if SB gave specs, or if a test spec is included in the crate?? That amount of labor may cost too much these days. I think on that machine, the bed is hardened,
    but not the slides. How is the slop in the handles? Under .005 is good. Does it have an anti-backlash adjustment in the cross? I suppose I could look online for that.

    sounds like you are happy so far!

    Jon

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.Rolfe View Post
    First thing I do is convert to DC PM motors with good FW controllers
    That's probably why I never saw it here. Everybody's talking about VFD..I guess I am old-fashioned.
    I'm curious - what controllers are you using with your DC motors - SCR or PWM? I used a DC motor on my 9" SB until my power supply died, just got a Teco VFD and am very happy with it, very smooth.

    Paul

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    There IS a backlash adjuster on the crossfeed, but I have not read much more about it yet.
    Glad you asked about slop today, after the DRO was set up. There is exactly .0026" backlash.
    I saw no such documentation with the machine or manual regarding scraping tolerance or specs.

    Yes, I am very pleased. I have seen little that I do not like.
    I think the biggest thing that impressed me is that it IS truly ready to go out of the box, and that matters to me because I really need to get back to work making Product.
    I have heard horror stories about people buying certain kinds of lathes and other machine tools, where it appears the manufacturer expects you to finish building it.

    I have done enough lathebuilding for a while, after the SB9A and that Atlas. I have to run one so I can buy Kraft Dinner and hot dogs!
    And that's why the price differential was justified..I HOPED it would run right out of the box, and it did.

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    SCR Full Wave. Dart is one such as is KB. KB also makes a four-quadrant servocontroller that can make a regular PMDC motor do amazing things, like flying reverse.

    I have also manufactured lap drivers in the past, using these controllers. Wired with Center Off power to the board, it idiot proofs the controller against..well.. idiots... who are running a heavy lap, then jam the machine into reverse.
    The result is a flywheel driving a really nice DC generator in reverse polarity, which commits unnatural acts on semiconductors, who immediately join the chorus invisible.
    I stay away from PWM. Some run at 16-26 KHz, and they drive my cat crazy, and he leaves. I like the guy. He keeps me company.
    Besides PWM really does not know what the motor is doing. It's more like a throttle, not a governor, at least the simple ones I ran into.

  12. #51
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    The herringbone thing is caused by velocity modulation, where the armature accelerates during each magnetic impulse and decelerates after each impulse within each revolution. These lathes are quite light and tool deflection occurs as the tool load fluctuates. It took me several years to figure this out. The problem disappears with the use of 3 phase power, whether it is from the wall or from a VFD. I have no experience with PWM driven DC motors on these lathes. I do know PWMDC motors do cause rotational vibration though, so I would be somewhat cautious in their use on these lathes. I bought one of the last 10Ks made in the US new.(1980) Mine has been very accurate and still is. I discovered the problem using a DC tachometer and an oscilloscope while taking a cut in high gear. Back gear use will mask the problem somewhat.
    Steve

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    Quote Originally Posted by steve-l View Post
    The herringbone thing is caused by velocity modulation, where the armature accelerates during each magnetic impulse and decelerates after each impulse within each revolution. These lathes are quite light and tool deflection occurs as the tool load fluctuates. It took me several years to figure this out. The problem disappears with the use of 3 phase power, whether it is from the wall or from a VFD. I have no experience with PWM driven DC motors on these lathes. I do know PWMDC motors do cause rotational vibration though, so I would be somewhat cautious in their use on these lathes. I bought one of the last 10Ks made in the US new.(1980) Mine has been very accurate and still is. I discovered the problem using a DC tachometer and an oscilloscope while taking a cut in high gear. Back gear use will mask the problem somewhat.
    Steve
    Amazing the armature mass would allow that response, but it makes sense. All my machines are equipped with digital tachs, because of the variable speed drives.

    BTW, if you want a nice tach for your machines for about $30, Amazon has these blue LED ones. $26 for the tach, about a dollar for an optointerupter, a little 12VDC power supply, and a 3K resistor.
    They are automotive. Set it on 4 cyl, have two interruptor blades on the shaft and that's it.
    digimill.jpg

    One thing: The 10K does NOT have a conventional back gear! They do use the polyV belts for a huge reduction ratio down to 60RPM, but if I want to make lots of blue smoke, I guess I will have to walk over to the old SB or the Atlas. Haven't tried hogging yet.

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  15. #53
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    thanks for this report!

    been a lomg time waiting to hear from someone that got one.

    i`d be curious to know the results of the "beyond center facing test", if you are familiar with that method of checking facing work- the type of large diameter parts you make would be perfect for that check.

    i wouldn`t be worried too much about longitudial cutting since the headstock sits on flat ways and would be easily adjustable even if it were out a bit from being bounced around in shipping or something.

    also be interested to know if the cross slide ways and compound ways are scraped or ground?


    i`m hoping that they will offer an option for a 1 1/8" bore though spindle in the near future- that`s really the only limiting factor i would have with the new 10K as i use a lot of 1" bar stock for the stuff i do.

    it just seems silly that they gace the little 8K a 1 1/8" bore but the 10K only 7/8"(?)

    is there any reason that you can see why a 1 1/8" bore would not work on the new 10K?

    like maybe the spindle drive gear or something?

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    Quote Originally Posted by iwananew10K View Post
    thanks for this report!

    been a lomg time waiting to hear from someone that got one.

    i`d be curious to know the results of the "beyond center facing test", if you are familiar with that method of checking facing work- the type of large diameter parts you make would be perfect for that check.

    i wouldn`t be worried too much about longitudial cutting since the headstock sits on flat ways and would be easily adjustable even if it were out a bit from being bounced around in shipping or something.

    also be interested to know if the cross slide ways and compound ways are scraped or ground?


    i`m hoping that they will offer an option for a 1 1/8" bore though spindle in the near future- that`s really the only limiting factor i would have with the new 10K as i use a lot of 1" bar stock for the stuff i do.

    it just seems silly that they gace the little 8K a 1 1/8" bore but the 10K only 7/8"(?)

    is there any reason that you can see why a 1 1/8" bore would not work on the new 10K?

    like maybe the spindle drive gear or something?
    I see a clearance problem for the spindle gear if they bore much bigger. The spud that sticks out into the gear chamber, that I use to plug the vacuum swivel into already has a pretty thin wall.

    Maybe they designed the little 8" with a clean sheet of paper for a different market, or something like that.

    The cross slide ways are scraped.

    (Slapping Forehead) Never thought of the beyond center test! Makes perfect sense. I do not have much feed left over on the 8" units but am finishing the 6" tool tomorrow, and that would have more free travel. great idea..thanks!

    I was just down working on the 6" D1-3 version of my tooling.

    On Day 3, running it every day, there is _NO_ buyer remorse at all. I'll do a short production run today, so as to give it the honor of starting to pay for itself.
    I am REALLY GLAD I got this lathe.
    I have tried to be honest and fair and have gone looking for things to complain about, but other than the $2 ball oiler, and the motor sound, and the offensive "YOU ARE STUPID" Safety Stickers all over the place like a madwoman's shit, that's the best I could do.
    __________________________________________________ ___________________________________________
    This is a beautiful machine. If you want it get it.
    My wife's advice to me is "You never buy anything for yourself. Just GET IT".
    But she missed a point. I bought this for the COMPANY. I use it to make a living. As such, by Day 7 I will not even remember what I paid for it because it **DOESN'T MATTER**.
    It's capital equipment, bought (regardless of where it's made) from a US Entity. The bean counters will handle the deductions and depreciation schedule, and by the time they get through, I will probably have paid around the same price as if I had bought the Upsuk Duk Red Dragon Excellent Special Gearhead and rock crusher or whatever TF it was I looked at!
    __________________________________________________ ____________________________________________

    Oh, there is whirring from the gears, but to compare it to the 60-year-old 9A whose gears have run in is not fair. These teeth still have hobbing marks on them.
    Give me a few hundred units and I expect things to quiet down a lot.

    I cannot believe it has only been out of the crate three days. But they have been LONG days. I wake up before 5 AM, because I know it's down there.
    Waiting for me.
    It WANTS me.
    It's READY.
    Last edited by J.Rolfe; 09-19-2013 at 07:01 AM. Reason: Justification for purchase

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  18. #55
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    Default Scraping

    "also be interested to know if the cross slide ways and compound ways are scraped or ground?"
    scraping1.jpg

    scraping2.jpg

  19. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.Rolfe View Post
    BTW, if you want a nice tach for your machines for about $30, Amazon has these blue LED ones. $26 for the tach, about a dollar for an optointerupter, a little 12VDC power supply, and a 3K resistor.
    They are automotive. Set it on 4 cyl, have two interruptor blades on the shaft and that's it.
    digimill.jpg
    I for one would like to know more about your Tach set up that would be really nice on my mill and lathe. Not sure here is the place to get into the specifics of it but maybe another thread or if not that I would love it if you could PM me some more specifics, part links and more pictures of yours.

    sorry for the hijacking.

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  21. #57
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    Default Tach

    Quote Originally Posted by Avrgjoe View Post
    I for one would like to know more about your Tach set up that would be really nice on my mill and lathe. Not sure here is the place to get into the specifics of it but maybe another thread or if not that I would love it if you could PM me some more specifics, part links and more pictures of yours.

    sorry for the hijacking.
    I'll add it to the SB page I was starting when things quiet down around here. It's woefully outdated, but..
    The South Bend Lathe
    A lot of people would like it. When I reviewed the thing on Amazon, I was flooded with inquiries.
    sbalive.jpg[

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    Quote Originally Posted by paulsomlo View Post
    The reason nothing comes up, is that although the new 10k has been up on the website for over a year, there's no evidence that any have ever shipped. Same for the 8" model, as well. So, there's very little info available as far as reviews. The new designs address some of the shortcomings of the originals, an updated version, if you will. Quality-wise, it's anybody's guess, but I would be surprised if it weren't at least the equivalent of the original. There are few companies making conventional, quality lathes, of less than 13" swing anymore. Emco makes a 12", Standard Modern (one of the only North American manufacturers of manual lathes) makes a 13", and I've heard that if you've got an extra $60,000 or so, Hardinge will build you a 10" HLV. So, it's easy to see why small, used SB lathes are so popular.
    I have noticed in my industry that long-established "old" business just aren't into doing web pages or updating them. They are mostly written once, under pressure, then rarely updated. Often, they are horrible-looking. Further along in the thread, you will see that I did buy the new 10K. It appears from Amazon's stock updates that people do buy the 10K, but for whatever reasons, just aren't talking online about them bad or good.
    Bottom Line: I am glad I bought it and am talking about it.
    But my business is web-based, so I understand that I should.
    Someone running a traditional shop, up to their eyebrows in work, is probably not even thinking about posting online, and possibly does not even know what "Online" means!

    This robs us of many tool gloats!

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    Default Honeymoon Phase is complete.

    No, nothing bad, just a summary. Today was a Work Day, making product and parts. Machined a D1-3 backplate for my nice 6-Jaw scroll chuck, perfect fit first ry.

    Here is what I learned: A tight and heavier machine makes a tremendous difference. This is why someone had posted about a hugely expensive heavy lathe earlier in the thread; I see, now.

    With the old SB9A, on my cast products, I had to take a cleanup pass and a finishing pass.

    With the new 10K, I can set the DRO and in ONE PASS go right to a finish and dimension. The payback time looks a lot shorter.
    Whether it is just because it is a new lathe, or because of heavier mass and components, or because it's a South Bend 10K, I may never know, for sure.

    Close tolerance work like the fitup of the backing plate was possible on the old SB9, but I had to WORK at it. This was fast and easy. Trivial with the DRO.

    I remain skeptical about the lack of a true backgear. I will know for sure next time I use the parting tool to cut disks out of 1/8" 6061 sheet. Right now, it's the bandsaw or the rotary table. The old Atlas 12 will swing it, but complains.

    So now, the new Queen of the Shop is just an old production mule. Like me.

    Purchase summary:

    This is not particularly expensive machine tool. It's a name I respect, though. What other options did I have? Not another used lathe, please. Not something where the manufacturer expects me to finish building it, either, with foundry sand dribbling out of the cavities.
    And besides!
    What ELSE could I have bought for the same money?
    1: A not-very-good used car.
    2: Taken the wife on a cheap cruise, end up with photographs nobody will ever look at and the indelible memory of the latest GI Virus.
    3: One HELL of a Hunter S. Thompson weekend.
    4: Nine tons of Spanish Peanuts.
    5: 22 hours of helicopter lessons.

    I am pleased with the purchase, and regret not doing it sooner. I see now that I had been working too hard all along, and like a car you have driven a few years too many, you never know how bad it is, because you slowly accommodate yourself to it. Then it fails Inspection one day, and you become a convert.
    Last edited by J.Rolfe; 09-20-2013 at 06:26 PM. Reason: Add to summary.

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  25. #60
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    Ok, this sounds like a great little lathe. So much so that I was inspired to look up the specs on the website. It all looks good, except for one little detail. Spindle speed tops out at *1200* RPM. Call me crazy, but for a lathe with a swing <10", that seems kinda sloooow. The 8k goes up to 2300, but you have to go up to the 13x40 EVS to get a spindle speed in the 3000 RPM range. I have a 6" Atlas that will run at 3k. Why is the spindle speed so slow on the new 10k's? Did Grizzly adhere a little too close to the original specs?

    Cheers,
    --Hawk


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