Pulley Warm When Running Back Gear... Any Advice?

CraigB5940 · Dec 27, 2010

I bought my 1959 13 X 40 lathe and lubed the cone pulley and back gear ideler with teflon based grease that I got from McMaster Carr using the product numberI found in this forum. My holes state "oil" not "grease".

I am noticing that the left end of the cone pulley starts to get warm after a few minutes running in back gear, the actual spindle bearing blocks remain cool during back gear operation and high speed operation out of back gear. I did not run the lathe with oil in the pulley for any length of time so I have no reference point to use here. I did really load the pulley with a syringe and I can't see that it has pushed any grease out of the cone when I take the gear covers. Spindle bearing reservoirs were flushed and refilled with 100 SSU spindle oil and as stated before, no issues working out of back gear. Before I tear into the spindle any ideas if there any kind of thrust adjustment on the spindle cone that could be causing this or could too much grease actually have done this? Thanks to all for your time.

Dennis Turk · Dec 27, 2010

Hi Craig

I believe you will find that the recommended way of installing the Teflon grease is on assembly of the spindle components. Steve Wells sells this grease also and I believe there was some post about how to install the grease and I believe the method of inserting the grease through the oil hole was not one of the recommended ways. Normally on an assembly like this you would install the grease in the Central area of the cone pulley were it does not ride on the spindle. On installation you would smear liberal amounts of the grease inside the cone and make sure there is some on the bearing areas of the cone that ride on the spindle. Several of the guys have done this and I am sure they will chime in and explain how they did it.

There should be no reason for heat to build up in this area unless the thrust bearing is set to tight but that usually shows up at higher speeds not in back gear. One would not want to run in back gear with the cone pulley getting hot as it sounds like a lack of lubrication.

If you have ever tried to take a froze up cone pulley off a spindle when it has galled and literally welds it self to the spindle its not a fun job.

Some one can correct me on this point but I don't believe the Teflon grease flows like normal petroleum based grease when it gets hot. So if it does not flow then the grease is just staying were you inserted it though the hole and not getting out on to the bearing surfaces.

Turk

R1200 · Dec 27, 2010

I have been using Lucas Engine Oil Stabilizer for this application. It is heavy but flows enough to coat surfaces. Centripetal force should spread it to the needed contact areas.

jim rozen · Dec 27, 2010

I can say with some certainty that you should NOT pump the "oil" hole full of
long-fiber wheel bearing grease, as that's exactly what dave sobel's shop did to the
10L that I bought. Locked up the cone pulley pretty solid.

My solution was to periodically pump that oil hole full of, well, oil. ATF to be
precise. It eventually disolved the glop in there and the cone pulley turns free
now on the spindle when back gear is used. I periodically give it shot of the
same stuff, ATF, to lube it.

CraigB5940 · Dec 27, 2010

Jim-did the ATF dissolve the grease?

Not sure ATF will get me out of this grease mess, did it prevent you from doing a tear down? IF there is a snake oil that would break down this teflon grease it would be joy to me but it sounds risky now not to do the right thing and tear it down for a cleaning.
My favorite fortune cookie is the one that says "Hell is paved with good intentions"-how true it is here, I always laugh when I get one of them with take out! At least there is a great link on this site for a 13X40 rebuild and I have the southbend maintenace pages too. Thanks to all for your replies, it helps me dodge a huge headache for sure!

k3vyl · Dec 27, 2010

oil

The back gear system will work flaughlessly with oil.It has 2 reservoirs that feed the four bearings.In an attempt to compete in the industry with user friendly back gears they introduced the grease.Find a solvent that will wash it out of the reservoirs.At that point you can just oil the back gears when ever you use them.Grease is oil with soap to hold it in place.Works good in a ball bearing that has its own built in oil pump.wont necessarily work in a sleeve setup like these lathes.

locoguy · Dec 27, 2010

As others have said, back gear setups are made for oil as a lubricant. If you are going to use the higher speeds for an extended time, lessen the belt tension to reduce the tendency for the cone pulley bearings to run hot.

jim rozen · Dec 27, 2010

In my case the ATF was a succesful fix. It took quite a while though, several months
of periodic injection. Very rapidly the pressure of shooting it in there opened a
channel though to the end of the spindle (left end in my case) so it was pretty messy
every time I dosed it. But eventually things opened up and the pulley spins free now,
without a teardown.

Of course this was wheel bearing grease - I don't know if ATF will touch the teflon
loaded variety. If you still have some, you might try putting a bit of grease in a
container and then hitting it with ATF, and try mixing it in to see if it thins out at all.

mark costello · Dec 27, 2010

I use way oil, works fine.

CraigB5940 · Dec 28, 2010

Thanks All I'm doing a tear down to clean

I get the benefit of putting in new felts for peace of mind. Appreciate the info from all of you

Larry Condon · Dec 28, 2010

I too, thought the teflon grease was the way to go and during a time that I had the spindle apart I cleaned everything in prepartion of using Teflon grease. After assemble I had a job that I needed to run in back gear and to my dissappoinment the cone pulleys started to heat up. I blamed it on the teflon grease. I bit the bullet and disassembled the spindle, cleaned out the grease and now using oil as it states.

Blob · Dec 28, 2010

I'm wondering if there is a difference between the early lathes and later ones. My 1987 10K has "grease" stamped on both the back gear and cone pulley, and I've been using teflon grease for a long time with no issues. It seems odd that SB would specify grease when its use could cause the cone pulley to seize. Maybe Ted knows the answer?

Blob

R1200 · Dec 28, 2010

Today I removed the oil screw and applied compressed air. Dirty oil came out at the spindle gear which has the locking drive pin. I'm happy now that the passages ways are confirmed to be open and like others I'll continue to use oil for this application.

Grease would be a mistake at least for my 1940s version SB 9 and a little more oil leaking onto the bench is not a big deal.

knudsen · Dec 28, 2010

IF there is a snake oil that would break down this teflon grease it would be joy to me but it sounds risky now not to do the right thing and tear it down for a cleaning.

Put some of the Teflon grease in something and try to mix some light oil with it. If it dissolves it, that's your snake oil. Try some spindle oil. Need to go up to something thicker, but the light oil might dissolve the grease faster. I'd go to iso 32 or 64 after a few flushes with the light oil. Way oil is OK, iso 64 IIRC, but not made for high speed bearings. Best bet is an oil made for bearings, thick enough to stay put for a while. Risk? Usually there's smoke before burning

Just don't let it get too hot to hold and it should be OK. Maybe wearing faster from lack of lubrication, but no significant damage unless you keep running it that way for a long time. As you oil it, you're only making it better.

I'll agree that grease is not a good idea for bearings designed for oil. Just convenient... at least on paper (sales brochure).

SBLatheman · Dec 28, 2010

Blob said:
I'm wondering if there is a difference between the early lathes and later ones. My 1987 10K has "grease" stamped on both the back gear and cone pulley, and I've been using teflon grease for a long time with no issues. It seems odd that SB would specify grease when its use could cause the cone pulley to seize. Maybe Ted knows the answer?

Blob

The materials and sizes have not changed(except for bronze bushings in the steel cone gear instead of a brass gear(10,13 14 1/2, 16)).
The teflon grease South Bend recommended has a very low melting point and flows very well. Squeezing it into the hole with the applicator should work fine.
Oil works too, Always did, But the grease will last longer between applications.
Ted
PS. Steve Wells has all the specs and data on the recommended teflon grease

floridadon · Dec 28, 2010

Is the problem possibly that the teflon grease does not meet the specs that SB used for grease ? This has me thinking that I should not have put in teflon grease recited in some of the rebuilds. Is anyone having problems with the grease from Steve, who sells the grease that SB used or is it problems with a substitute ?

CraigB5940 · Dec 29, 2010

If anyone has the SB Grease Specs, I will compare

The grease I used is the Mc Master Carr Part Number 1378K33 listed in one of the reference stickys at the top of this forum.

These are the specs, if this grease does not meet specs I can see if the post is noted as such.

Description: High-Temperature Synthetic Grease with PTFE (Teflon)

Details: The synthetic oil base in these food-grade, silica-thickened greases increases time between applications.
They also contain a PTFE additive that reduces friction and waterproofs metal surfaces, preventing rust and corrosion. NSF rated H1 for applications with incidental food contact. Temperature range is -40° to +450° F. Color is white. Aerosols have a female stem. For aerosol spray extensions

knudsen · Dec 29, 2010

You may want to research the compatibility of the silica based grease with whatever you put in. A pure petroleum product, like the Lucas oil stabilizer mentioned above is probably OK. The problem with it is it's thicker than wooky snot and it's going to take a while to mix in. Otherwise, it should be a good lube. I use it on the open gears.

knudsen · Dec 29, 2010

OK, I just got done Linuxing my laptop and was unable to open pdfs until now. Anyway, I got a look at the parts drawing from '65, and the bearings are oilites. They should never be greased, because it clogs the pores and oil can't flow out when get warm up. Best to go with a lighter oil.

Oilite - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Beemer Precision, Inc. - Oilite - Sleeve & Flange Bearings, Flexible Couplings - Sintered Products

I've never found a way to unclog a greased oilite. Since replacing them involves removing the spindle (from what I see in the drawing), and because others have had success with an array of oils and TFE grease, I would try to find a solvent that dissolves the grease, flush it, oil it, run it.

CraigB5940 · Dec 29, 2010

A tear down is in the works for sure!

Not sure if my 1959 lathe has oilite in the spindle but sure is good to know that info.
I am removing the spindle cleaning it with whatever solvent I find that dissolves this grease. I hope others can benefit from finding this post and leaving "well eneough alone" if their sipndle hole does not say "grease"

Pulley Warm When Running Back Gear... Any Advice?

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