Questions about 5C collet chucks

spooky · May 25, 2016

Hey All,

Long time, no post!

I am seriously thinking about getting a 5c collet chuck for my 9a sb. There is a job I am doing where holding larger mandrels (up to 1 inch) is the order of the day. My 3c's just don't cut the mustard here.

I like the looks of the Bison set-true but was wondering if anyone has experience with either the set-true or non-adjustable models. I like the idea of having the adjustment available to me. The lathe is old and being able to dial the chuck in would be helpful.

At the same time, the set-true is quite a bit more extensive than the non adjustable model. in fact enco is having a great sale, but think they only carry the non adjustable model. Argh!

Also i am not sure which backing plate to get. Is there one that already has the 9a theads on it, that i can finish? Or do i have to do it all?

Thanks for your experiences and thoughts.

CE

Monarchist · May 25, 2016

spooky said:
Hey All,

Long time, no post!

I am seriously thinking about getting a 5c collet chuck for my 9a sb. There is a job I am doing where holding larger mandrels (up to 1 inch) is the order of the day. My 3c's just don't cut the mustard here.

I like the looks of the Bison set-true but was wondering if anyone has experience with either the set-true or non-adjustable models. I like the idea of having the adjustment available to me. The lathe is old and being able to dial the chuck in would be helpful.

At the same time, the set-true is quite a bit more extensive than the non adjustable model. in fact enco is having a great sale, but think they only carry the non adjustable model. Argh!

Also i am not sure which backing plate to get. Is there one that already has the 9a theads on it, that i can finish? Or do i have to do it all?

Thanks for your experiences and thoughts.

CE

First.. have you ever had one of those nose-mount, key-cranker 5C chucks actually in your hands?

I have two.

One with D1-3 integral back. The other ready to mount to a Bison bespoke D1-3.. if as-when I care to cease hand-centering it in a 4-J chuck for more serious accuracy yet.

They are long. They are heavy. They are SLOW to operate.

If you need a large bore collet system on a small SB nine, and don't want to lose as much daylight for your mandrels, an ER 32 should get you up around max spindle bore, an ER40's max probably well over your bore.

NONE of THE ABOVE are fast to operate. Did I say that already?

The ER system is at least modestly shorter, a good deal lighter, and also cheaper to buy.

Collets especially, as they grip much better.. and have about a full mm grip range, each - vs the 5C's paltry few thou range, each.

Bill

themedulla · May 25, 2016

spooky said:
Hey All,

Long time, no post!

I am seriously thinking about getting a 5c collet chuck for my 9a sb. There is a job I am doing where holding larger mandrels (up to 1 inch) is the order of the day. My 3c's just don't cut the mustard here.

I like the looks of the Bison set-true but was wondering if anyone has experience with either the set-true or non-adjustable models. I like the idea of having the adjustment available to me. The lathe is old and being able to dial the chuck in would be helpful.

At the same time, the set-true is quite a bit more extensive than the non adjustable model. in fact enco is having a great sale, but think they only carry the non adjustable model. Argh!

Also i am not sure which backing plate to get. Is there one that already has the 9a theads on it, that i can finish? Or do i have to do it all?

Thanks for your experiences and thoughts.

CE

I just picked up a Bison knock-off for my 9A. I'm sure the Bison has superior run-out and quality but for me that level of accuracy just doesn't matter enough to justify the extra expense. I'm not good enough to get that close anyway.

The collet chuck I got required an adapter plate (these were available in different threads - I just picked up the 1 1/2 - 8 that fits the 9A). You have to machine the adapter plate on your lathe for the best concentric fit. I believe the Bison works the same way (maybe not the set-tru model as it is adjustable).

Monarchist · May 26, 2016

themedulla said:
You have to machine the adapter plate on your lathe for the best concentric fit. I believe the Bison works the same way (maybe not the set-tru model as it is adjustable).

Bison's plate - I don't have the set-true one - labeled as specific for their 5C chucks, also fits the CDCO and H&H Industrial Chinese knock-offs. Appears they copied the recess dimensions along with everything else.

They seem to be OK on TIR, but the CDCO one wanted various evidence of grubiness cleaned out of its threads. H&H was better, whether it actually came out of a different factory or not. That can change from year to year, or even one chuck to another, so..

Might also mention that the spigot on these is very shallow compared to a 3-J or 4-j backplate and flat-back chuck body.

One has to work with a fair bit of finesse in measuring. Not enough 'waste' material to sneak up on it easily with trial cuts.

Bill

extropic · May 26, 2016

Another vote to go ER40. The grip range for each ER collet is rated @ 1mm (.0394") rather than ≈.01" for 5C, so fewer ER collets will cover the full range.

PeteM · May 26, 2016

One "pro" for the 5C over the ER collet chucks is that you can get 5C collets in square and hex forms -- of possible use to some. The Hardinge-Sjogren type of 5c chuck is faster to operate than the key crank types; not as fast as the lever-arm through-the-spindle type (which won't fit your SB9). You can also use proper depth stops in internally threaded 5c collets and workable stops in plain collets. Also machinable collets, internally gripping collets, extended range, etc. for the 5C.

If you're only doing round work and value $$$ over the slightly longer time to tighten an ER collet nut, they have the advantages of a much larger grip range, greater affordability, and the likelihood you can use them in your lathe tail stock and mill spindle as well by just adding another collet holder.

Personally, I use ER collets most of the time in my vertical mill, 5C in my old Hardinge horizontal mill, 5C on the lathe spindle, and sometimes ER in the tailstock (to hold geometric die heads and the like). A 3/4" ER collet in a MT3 holder is used to adapt annular cutters to my drill press.

Both systems have their place. ER is probably the most affordable way to start.

spooky · May 26, 2016

All,

Thank you for your informative replies!

Right now I am only doing round work. I am making bronze bushings in 3 different sizes. One of the reasons I latched on to the 5c chuck option, was I thought I could use 5c expanding collets to hold the bushings directly, as well as hold the mandrel I have been using to this point.

Too bad there isn't (that I can find) a 3c expanding collet option.

I am curious about the ER40 option though. That would get me a max 1" holding capacity (if I have that correct) and I do like the way ER's clamp completely across the surface. Is there such thing as an expanding ER collet? I've never seen one.

As I only have 1/2" clamping capability with my 3c set up. I turned down a 1" mandrel to a 1/2" shank diameter

Then made stop collars for them to locate the work and have something to "push" against while cutting.

But now I need to make an even larger set of bushings with a 1" bore diameter. I am using another 1" mandrel, but again have nothing to hold it in. I think cutting it down like I did the others wouldn't work too well. I tried holding the mandrel in my 4 jaw chuck, but when I got it dialed in at one end, the other end would have too much run out. I'm sure that old 4 jaw has seen better days.

So this is what got me to thinking about an adjustable 5c Chuck.

spooky · May 26, 2016

Are there commercially available ER 40 collet chucks out there? Do they have backing plates like the other chucks, or do they have a MT end on them?

Again, thanks for your thoughts and experiences.

Best,

Chris E.

stephen thomas · May 26, 2016

I sometimes use expanding mandrels for the purpose you describe. Used between centers, even large diameters will work fine on small lathes.

One example, not a specific recommendation:
http://www.kbctools.com/products/WORK HOLDING/LATHE TOOLING/LATHE MANDRELS/1046.aspx

The price of this stuff is all over the map. I bought a 1/2" - 2" set from one of the alphabet stores (may have been MSC) on sale for a lot less than typical prices on eBay.

Depending how you configure the chuck, your existing 3c collets can be used to hold back-stops and such even in conjunction with ER40's.

I used 6K collets to hold backstops and such in a Jacobs rubberflex on my 10K.

You would probably have to use the 50- series Jacobs on a 9", capacity up to 1" as opposed to the one shown, cap up to 1-3/8" stock, 1-1/2" aftermarket.

Disadvantage of Jacobs is the 3-16" recess from collet to closer face. Disadvatage of both Jacobs and ER is less disc holding capability compared to 5c. Also no E-collet options compared to 5c.

spooky · May 26, 2016

I like the diameter capability of those between center mandrels. The drawback for me is speed in parts changes. I need to make 10-20 sets at a time so getting the material on the mandrel and off needs to be quick.

I haven't done any more searching online for er40 lathe chucks. Does anyone have a favorite?

Thanks

CE

mdshunk · May 26, 2016

If you set a little arbor press on a rollie cart next to the lathe it's only maybe 20 seconds to bump a part off the mandrel and bump a new one on.

Monarchist · May 26, 2016

spooky said:
Right now I am only doing round work. I am making bronze bushings in 3 different sizes. One of the reasons I latched on to the 5c chuck option, was I thought I could use 5c expanding collets to hold the bushings directly, as well as hold the mandrel I have been using to this point.

Too bad there isn't (that I can find) a 3c expanding collet option.

Surely there is. Mind - we (day job) just MADE ours.

Packrat that I am, I have three sets of the sort of 'tween-centers mandrels you seem to be using...
and then also - among some of everything else... what might be just what you need:

"Breakheart Tool Company" straight-tailed 'soft' (10L steel) internal expanders.

Breakheart Tool Company Products, 8 pc expanding arbor set, 3 pc expanding arbor set, 4 pc expanding arbor set, 5C Collet Stop Set, 5C Expanding Arbors

Allen-key operated, and economical enough you could turn just the fit you need, replace the altered blank later for next time.

Made in USA, even. And NOW, not a hundred years ago.

I am curious about the ER40 option though. That would get me a max 1" holding capacity (if I have that correct) and I do like the way ER's clamp completely across the surface. Is there such thing as an expanding ER collet? I've never seen one.

See above. I used to make my own. The Breakheart style, not ER. I can't doo that for as little as Frank charges for a whole set. Too many milling saw cuts to mess with that HE already has nailed.

As I only have 1/2" clamping capability with my 3c set up. I turned down a 1" mandrel to a 1/2" shank diameter

As you would not have to take a Breakheart expander out of the spindle, a 3-J or 4-J chuck could do yah.

'Soft' goods, so you could turn the stop shoulder right onto them. Or just turn a spacer ring to slip over 'em that is just a tad larger than the expanded diameter and not have to waste a larger sized one.

Bill

iwananew10K · May 26, 2016

for your purpose any cheap MT3>ER40 chuck should be fine, can always true them in-situ easily if need be but even the cheapies seem to be good for .001"

I do think ER is the better choice in this instance, *looks* like you want a good solid,straight grip without the need for tailstock support since your parts are short?

ERs excel at that.

michiganbuck · May 26, 2016

I have had great luck with expanding mandrels (post #4)have taken some near junk, polished the centers, then with laying on a stack of rubber bands to the OD reground them to dead true, to the next size and even made some a double diameters.

The collect chuck looks interestingsize.Bison 5C Collet Chuck Steel Body, 5in SET-TRU - Penn Tool Co., Inc
Once ran a CNC grinder that had an adjust true chuck mostly for bushings and that worked very well. but it was made with zero wobble... you would have to check the Bison and lap the back face if that was needed to make zero wobble. yes just put in a one inch straight drill rod and mark for wobble... then lap the back.. easy job perhaps half hour..Yes if needed who knows it may be good from the get go.

traditional-tools · May 27, 2016

I don't have one on my 9A, but this one on ebay looks nice, it has a lever and goes on the front of the spindle.

5c Collet Closer for 9 inch Lathes with 1 1 2 8THREADED Spindle Noses X | eBay

iwananew10K · May 27, 2016

just an FYI- ER40 can be had larger than 1" capacity-

ER4 Collets Individual Metric and Imperial Sizes - MariTool

These are pretty cool...quick release MT3 expanding mandrels-maybe hard to justify expense but might give you some ideas..

expanding mandrel with MT3 shank, with 5 sleeves-RCAD3247

Or roll yer own?...
http://www.rdgtools.co.uk/acatalog/2MT-SOFT-END-ARBOUR-WITH-TANG-40mm-x-40mm-3020.html

spooky · May 27, 2016

Monarchist said:
Surely there is. Mind - we (day job) just MADE ours.

Bill

Bill, am I understanding you made a 3C expanding collet? I am not talking about a expanding collet held by 3c, but an actuall expanding 3c collet? That is beyond my capabilities right now but cool!

spooky · May 27, 2016

Bill also mentioned that the 5c collet chucks are slow to operate with the chuck key. I am assuming it is very time consuming to change collets, but that once the collet is in the chuck a twist of the key will tighten and loosen your part. Have I got that right?

My point being, I am not so worried about time lost changing collets as i am the ability to quickly move from part to part

spooky · May 27, 2016

Okay, so I've found some ER40 MT3 chuck holders on ebay. Am I correct in assuming you need to use a drawbar with them? Seems like you'd really have to.

I've never made a drawbar, but I guess it wouldn't be that difficult.

Is anyone aware of a 1.5X8TPI ER40 collet chuck?

BTW, I really appreciate all the replies, ideas and help here! This is why I love the SB forum so much. I get so many ideas I never would have thought of on my own.

stephen thomas · May 27, 2016

I like the diameter capability of those between center mandrels. The drawback for me is speed in parts changes. I need to make 10-20 sets at a time so getting the material on the mandrel and off needs to be quick.

Not trying to push any agenda, but if you have not used either type, the mandrels between centers are faster than ER collets. Not as fast as 3c/4c/5c expansion collets.

I have a half dozen ER collet chuck systems on various machines from ER11 thru ER40's.
The mandrels, you mostly just remove from between centers, thunk on a wooden bench to remove a part, put the next on, thunk it the other way, and put it back in the centers. There is more variance for axial position, unless you grind some with steps as Buck mentions.

As easy as -c type collets are to make, Had I a need like yours, I might well do what Bill mentions. Dedicate a long day, get a bar of 4140 prehard, and make a dozen of the things in 3c.

smt

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