SB9 spindle washer/leaking oil

I am still trying to figureout why my rear bearing sucks the oil out of the cavity almost immediately.

I am using a needle roller thrust bearing between the casting and the take up collar. Since the thrust bearing race presses against the casting and has an id that matches the spindle I think the rece is siphoning the oil out of the oil cavity.

The inside of the take up collar is beveled so that the perhaps the oil will flow back into the return holes rather than siphoning out.

In the South bend parts diagram shown below, what are the parts 47 and 30, pin and take-up washer? My lathe did not have these parts, that is the reason I have the thrust bearing.

Thanks

John

the pen that you refer to, is meant to lock the take-up nut and the fiber washer together. The older lathe did not use them.


In order to understand what is happening in your lathe, you need to understand the principles used for this type of bearing.

my 1940 9C has cast-iron bearings that are grooved to allow oil to drain back into the reservoir. Some of this oil will be lost to the inner and outer thrust bearings, this is intentional in the design of the lathe.

If you have excessive wear in these bearings oil will not be applied evenly across the Bering. Instead it will pool in certain places and be forced out. Also if there is a lot of junk building up in the lower portion of these groovs, the oil will have no place to go except out of the bearings.

you may need to remove the spindle, and inspect the bearings. clean them out good, and replace the wicks. measure the diameter of each bearing in several directions to make sure that they are not out of round.

if the problem is that they are out of round you may just need to live with it. Alternatively you can replace the headstock.

also do not use motor oil of any kind in your headstock, or anywhere else on the lathe.

Use only oil design for lathe spindle's. Preferably the oil recommended by South Bend lathe for your machine.

good luck.

promacjoe

"also do not use motor oil of any kind in your headstock, or anywhere else on the lathe."

I have to disagree with that statement. When I got my 1940 9N Model A thirty years ago it was missing the gear chart. My dad had a guy in his early eighty's that my dad would call back from retirement when ever the regular machinists could not figure out how to do something or would say that something could not be done. This old machinist had a Model A 9N that he had bought during WWII to make parts for the Army (those parts were +/_ .0001) He told my dad to send me over to his shop on Saturday and I could copy down the information on his chart. The old machinist told me when he goth is lathe he could not get the proper South Bend oil because of shortages because of the war. So he just used plain old 30 WT auto oil. Over the war years he used his South Bend over 10 hours a day six days a week.
When the war ended and supplies for everything went back to normal he took his spindle out and checked for ware. He did not find any so he continued to use SAE 30 and his spindle still did not show any ware. He told me to all ways add oil before starting my lathe even though it will not need oil every time.

I took his advice and used SAE 30 oil and added it each time I have used my lathe. That is up to a few years ago when I accidentally switched to 10w30. My head stock runs cold to the touch. Gary P. Hansen

John,

I would like to clarify something in your post. Your needle roller thrust bearing is inside the headstock casting, right? Between the cone pulley gear and the headstock casting?

That's where it should be.

There should be a fiber washer between the take up nut and the head stock casting.

??????

Pete

Thanks all,

Pete, no I have a brand new genuine South Bend ball type thrust bearing between the cone pulley piece and the casting. The needle type thrust bearing I refer to is a cheapie needle roller thrust I got from McMaster to put between the casting on the outside and the take up nut because my lathe did not have the part 30 washer. I didn't know that the needle roller would be good or bad, but it seemed like a reasonable upgrade from any kind of washer.

As an update, I removed the needle thrust bearing and am running the take up nut directly against the casting and the oil usage has been about cut in half. Now I only have to fill the rear reservoir once a day rather than twice a day.

With regard to the bearing's surface being worn, I don't know and in any event there isn't much I can do about it. I have brand new felts in the headstock. The spindle has about 0.0003 runout when tested with the broomstick pull up method that South Bend describes in the instructions. Again with regard to bearing wear, I can cut 0.0002 reliably. Not bad for an abused 1949 piece of machinery.

John

bll230 said:

Thanks all,

Pete, no I have a brand new genuine South Bend ball type thrust bearing between the cone pulley piece and the casting. The needle type thrust bearing I refer to is a cheapie needle roller thrust I got from McMaster to put between the casting on the outside and the take up nut because my lathe did not have the part 30 washer. I didn't know that the needle roller would be good or bad, but it seemed like a reasonable upgrade from any kind of washer.

As an update, I removed the needle thrust bearing and am running the take up nut directly against the casting and the oil usage has been about cut in half. Now I only have to fill the rear reservoir once a day rather than twice a day.

Click to expand...

OK, I got it. But running the nut against the casting is bad practice. You want something in there that is somewhat of a bearing. The needle isn't bad except that you've just shown us that it will 'eat oil'.

The original on my 10K is a fibre thrust washer. If you can't get that stuff then use a piece of .03" brass sheet cut out to make a washer. You need a bearing in there 'cause the nut wants to be adjusted to minimum end play and you don't want to gall up anything.

bll230 said:

With regard to the bearing's surface being worn, I don't know and in any event there isn't much I can do about it. I have brand new felts in the headstock. The spindle has about 0.0003 runout when tested with the broomstick pull up method that South Bend describes in the instructions. Again with regard to bearing wear, I can cut 0.0002 reliably. Not bad for an abused 1949 piece of machinery.

John

Click to expand...

Well then you're all set! Those numbers are a bit tight but will be OK if you don't experience any heating when running a lot.

Pete

Pete,

I agree that the take up nut running on the casting isn't a good permanent solution. You mention fibre washer. Is that what the part 30 washer is, and if so what does the part 47 pin do? Fiber isn't much of a thrust washer. How does the fiber work out if you want to feed the tool from left to right?

John

John;

Of all the people that have converted their 9's outboard fiber thrust bearing to the needle roller bearing, including me, this is the first account I've heard of oil being sucked out. So, something unique is going on with yours.

First, don't run the nut against the headstock casting. It will wear your headstock casting if you have it tight enought to control endplay. If not that tight, you'll have excessive endplay.

Second, check the outer surface of the rear bearing casting, the surface that the thrust bearing/washer rides on. Is it flat, grooved, worn? If so, dress it with a stone or file to clean it up if it's only light wear or burrs. If the surface is worn so badly that it has significant grooves or "coning" to it, then the potential fixes are beyond the scope of this message.

Third, with the needle roller in place with the two flat washers you bought with it (you did buy the accompanying washers, didn't you?), pull the takeup nut up just until the inner flat washer does not rotate against the headstock. Check at your upper and lower speeds and adjust as required and finally check endplay. You should have zero endplay, spindle should be free, and inner washer should reliably not rotate.

Now, if it's still sucking oil, then...

Ed in Florida

bll230 said:

Pete,

I agree that the take up nut running on the casting isn't a good permanent solution. You mention fibre washer. Is that what the part 30 washer is, and if so what does the part 47 pin do? Fiber isn't much of a thrust washer. How does the fiber work out if you want to feed the tool from left to right?

John

Click to expand...

Yeah, on mine the washer is made of that hard, stiff, black fiber/paper stuff. It has a brass rivet, a pin on one side and riveted on the other, that fits into a hole in the headstock casting. The pin keeps the washer from rotating.

I've not done much 'left hand' work so there's little wear or problem with the fiber so far.

If you do a lot of 'left hand' work then, like Ed said, you'll want something better than the fiber. For most uses, like threading, I suspect that a brass washer will work fine.

Ed, can you provide some idea of how thick your bearing is, or other dimensions, 'cause the type or size difference might be enough to cause the problem.

?????

Pete

The casting surface is smooth and undamaged, and I had the take up nut adjusted pretty much as you describe. I may have had it a slight bit tighter because the inner washer/race rotating was never an issue, so maybe I was a bit more than "just at" where the washer doesn't rotate.

I don't really do any left-to-right, I was just supposing. I may try cutting a washer out of hard gasket material and see if it sucks the oil out.

For the time being I guess i will put the needle thrust back on a deal with the oil.

Thanks for the help

John

Hard gasket material just might work. Never thought of that. Let us know what happens!

Pete

The original washer was made from phenolic, another name/grade is G-10 green glass.
It wears well and easy to machine. You could make one by turning, boring and parting. I think brass would be an excellent substitute. As I posted earlier my machine has a washer made from steel and ground parallel. The steel to iron interface is the same as the spindle to spindle bearing relationship. The phenolic acts as a better oil seal than steel or brass.

Scott

I am quite familiar with G10 as a lot of model helicopter sideframes are G10 now.

I'll get some and make a washer and try it.

Thanks

John

I would think that G10, with it's high glass content, would be quite abrasive!

Pete

My heavy 10 had the same thrust washer. The thrust washer is phenolic but not G-10. G10 has a glass lamination and that would not play well with the iron and steel. The laminations on the one I removed was either cotton or paper. That material is avaible at McMaster Carr under the name "Garolite". Just dont get the fiberglass laminations. What about a rulon J washer ? I upgradded to a roller bearing on mine but I had to make a nylon washer to center the bearing on the shaft.

http://i285.photobucket.com/albums/ll59/d-hartman/Southbend-Lathe/Thrust%20Bearing/DSC05378-1.jpg

I don't seem to be having any oil problems with mine. Maybe the nylon bushing is keeping that in check. The nylon washer is the width of the bearing assembly plus the distance from the face of the casting to the face of the bronze bearing minus 5 or 10 thousandths.


Don

My new to me 9a has a steel thrust washer. Most likely updated by the previous the owner since it was made in 47'.

I was reading on lathes.co.uk that you don't want to go too tight with the takeup when using the external thrust washer setup instead of the fiber washer because the pins are not tapered and need a little slipping room. When I ran with 0 lateral slop, I got a very noticeable chaffing sound. When I loosened (something like 3-5 degrees on the takeup) it went away and took my lateral play up to about .0005.

I find that outboard bearing spits oil very nicely. I'm playing with some bolt-on aluminum spit shields just so I stop ruining shirts. But, I have a little bit of spindle oil always coming out of both sides of both bearings with the right shim setup for spec on the lift test. I'm guessing this is just normal since the drains in the bearings can't be 100% efficient -- especially on a 70+ year old machine. So, when that oil makes it to the tapered pin bearing it's a great oil flinger. I think it's all a good thing since it's migrating towards a total loss system which should be better for longevity. I'd rather have used oil leaving the system. I just wish it would all flow nicely to a removable cup.

I've seen occasional pics of people putting aluminum shields on the front of the headstock casting that go all the way up to the bearings. I'm sure it was for this issue.