South Bend lathe in Hungary

Hello everybody,

first of all a big THANK to all of you keeping such a forum alive!
I hope you can help me, and doing so I'll also be able to contribute to this amazing collection of information.
Let me short introduce myself: my name is Balázs, I'm Hungarian from Budapest, 42 years old and have two sons (7 and 11).
I'm on the way to learn the special terms used for the lathe, but English is not my native language, so sorry for any stupid error in advance!
My diploma is about lighting engineer, but I never worked in that business. I'm at Bosch now, working as project manager in the ECU development department.
I'm completely newbie at machining, but I'm kinda DIY guy and I always wanted a lathe, but I could never afford it, until last weekend!
I have an old friend, a mechanical engineer, who had a lathe, which he didn't use. Every time we met I asked him to give it to me, but he always refused, saying that will be inherited by one of his sons. That "fight" continued for more than 10 years, but now he decided to present it to me! WOW!

I immediately went to have a look on it, and found it is quite a bit rusty.


For the time being I could not inspect it more deeply but the rust is "only" a few weeks old: there was recently some huge rain and his basement where the lathe is stored went under water. Apart from the headstock spindle and the gear set which I did not check all moving parts can easily move: cross-slide, tool rest, apron, ...
More pics about the lathe can be found here: Picasa Web Albums - mokusbajusz - lathe
In spite of that its condition seems awful I'm about to restore it anyway. Inspired by Paula's Model 9A…

In order to do that I need a lot of information and help, since there is nothing available for this machine here in Hungary.
I'm already lurking here for some days, and sucking the information like a sponge, but there are some that I could not gather.
So please be prepared to be bombed by many questions. Hopefully I will not bother you with them.

1)
The first thing I guess is to identify the machine. Based on the info given by the previous owner it has a 3 feet bed, its Catalog No. is 615 YV, the date of manufacture is 1937 (estimation).
I did not check its Serial No. yet, as I didn't know where to look for it when taking the photos. The lathe is on the countryside (about 40 km far from my flat), so unfortunately I cannot access it easy, but next time I'll have a closer look.
I assume it is a 9" Model C. Can it be confirmed checking the pics?

2)
My next question is how to remove the rust? Can sandblasting be used? If so which part? What parts must not? How to clean then them?
I assume none of the grinded, machined surfaces can be sandblasted, but what about the cast parts (bed, etc.)?
Can the V-ways be detached from the cast, or it is not recommended, I mean wouldn't be alignment problems by reassembly?
What method / material is to follow /use to mask the parts for sandblasting?

3)
I assume for the disassembly and reassembly I will need some kind of repair manual and / or part list. Can some of you offer me any documentation about this machine?

4)
Is the code for the color of the original paint known that can a paint shop read / understand also nowadays? I would use the same color as it was factory used.

That is for now.
Sorry to be a bit long, but I'm so excited!
Thank you for any advice in advance.
I'll be back!

Welcome M
rebuild manual here: Rebuild Manual & Kit for 9? South Bend Lathe Model C - eBay (item 150437633842 end time Aug-24-10 09:36:48 PDT)

Poke around here for more info: The SBL Workshop - Home

Regarding serial # location, from above site: The serial number is stamped on the tailstock end of the bed between the flat- and v-ways. It Is used to determine the size and type of lathe, plus any special features or attachments.

As far as cleaning I'd be real leery of pointing a sandblaster at your machine. Grit gets everywhere probably causing more trouble than it fixes. I'd wipe it with diesel fuel, especially the ways, and then a light oil and see what you have.

The experts will be along soon to give you better advice on dealing with the machined surfaces.

Good luck,
Del
PS the 615 model # is a model C

Hello and congratulations!

If it was my lathe, I would get to it immediately with several gallons of oil and some rags to eliminate any further rust damage.

Even if you can't move it for a while, you need to stop the rust from progressing.

I am looking forward to following your progress!

Glove

Hi there,

thank you for your hints.
I discussed with my colleagues as well, everybody said avoiding sandblasting.

I let the serial no. found, it is 85120.
According to the available info and the equation here, it should be built in 1937.

So, is it a 9" Workshop Model C?
May I say I own a vintage lathe?

I'm afraid I have to make my weekend free...

Hi Mokusbajusz

If you go to lathes and look for Southbend in the Archive section
you might find some Information and pictures for your lathe.


The rust looks more like a few years worth rather than "only" a few weeks old.

Rgds
Davycrocket

You also have some metric transposing gears and hopefully the remaining ones also. The V belt drive is a great up grade from the flat belt. You get more speeds with it. Under the headstock mounted on the bed is a micrometer carriage stop. Everything needs the rust removed or they will just freeze up. The rebuild manual on eBay, that was suggested is excellent, get that right away.
Good luck with it----

mokusbajusz said:

Hi there,

thank you for your hints.
I discussed with my colleagues as well, everybody said avoiding sandblasting....

Click to expand...

Good

mokusbajusz said:

I let the serial no. found, it is 85120.
According to the available info and the equation here, it should be built in 1937.

So, is it a 9" Workshop Model C?...

Click to expand...

Probably so based on the 615 model designation

mokusbajusz said:

May I say I own a vintage lathe?

Click to expand...

yes, even just based on the rust alone. But the rust looks like it's mostly on the shiny bits.

hello and welcome. First of all I must say your English is fine, better than some who were born here in America. Actually we don't really worry about such things.

you might do a search for "electronic rust removal". That might be the best way to remove the rust. Do not use sandblasting or sandpaper to remove the rust.

a good place to start looking for information is www.lathes.co.uk . Here you will find a fairly complete history of South Bend along with information on your particular lathe. you will also find some parts and gears in their for-sale section. I believe they're a bit closer to you and probably less expensive.

You can also go to The SBL Workshop - Home. There's a lot of information here including parts list, how to run a lathe, and many other booklets published by South Bend lathe. It is a great source of information.

You have a lot of work ahead of you, with care and the right information you can bring this lathe back to life. Hopefully without spending to much money.
and in the process you will learn a lot and hopefully you can pass it along to your kids. getting your kids involved with your hobbies and teaching them what you know can be the best part about any hobby. And this type of hobby can be quite useful as well. being able to make a part that does not exist or would be difficult to find, is worth a lot.

promacjoe

I'm here again...

I simply cannot wait to start the project.
Or is it already started?
I do read and read and read on the different sites you suggested.
Plenty of information, and I feel sometimes lost, but I find the whole thing extremely interesting.

I feel more and more than the rebuild is one thing, but to run the lathe and machining parts is another story. Ohh God, there is so much to learn ahead me!

I bought the manual delTool advised. Thanks for the hint! Hopefully it will arrive soon.

You also have some metric transposing gears

Click to expand...

delTool, how did you recognized that? For me (at least by my current level of expertise in machining ) they are only gears. Does it mean, that the lathe could make metric threads? That would be fine!

Good luck with the restoration - I was going to say that if the rust is recent it shouldn't be that difficult to clean off, then I looked at your web album and it might be worse than that but maybe not as bad as it first looks.
For cleaning rust, oil, rags and scotchbrite are the safest options, although opinion is even divided on scotchbrite. Do as little as possible to the V ways (and the flat way for tailstock) and dovetails on the cross slide etc - these are the surfaces that provide most of the alignment, if you wear them down attacking the rust with anything too coarse, the lathes accuracy may suffer unless you can find someone to hand scrape the ways true again.

There are several things that identify the metric transpose gears:
- the end gear cover is much bigger than the standard one (you will understand why shortly)
- There are 2 plates on the gear cover to explain Metric and English threading setuos
- The big compound gear that has a 127 tooth and a 100 tooth gear is only used for transposing english geared lathes for metric threading (12.7mm = 1/2", thus can convert threads per inch (or half inch) into pitch in mm).
- If the lathe was built for the european market there is an outside chance it has metric leadscrew and feeds, in which case the gears will be english transpose gears, where the compound is 135 and 127 teeth (I haven't counted on your photos). Either way the lathe has the parts to cut metric and english (american these days) screw threads!

The large gear cover is to fit that big compound gear, the gear train is usually much smaller. Apart from the compound there should be some other change gears necessary to get some of the less common metric pitches. It should become clear if you can clean up the plates without damaging the enamel any more - otherwise look in southbendlathe yahoo group, there are lots of photos of the plates there, also usually some for sale on ebay.

Jim

jimwallis said:

Either way the lathe has the parts to cut metric and english (american these days) screw threads!
...
Jim

Click to expand...

WOW!
That means that from an american point of view my (how good feeling to write this!) lathe is something special!

Another question: The electric motor is surely not original, it is a 3-phase motor running on 380V AC.
I'm curious if it is suitable for the lathe, although the lathe was used with it.
I mean about its RPM.
Supposing that SB designed and listed this lathe with specific speeds the motor has to match in order to achieve these. According to the v-belt drive it has 2x4=8 speeds.
Is it known what RPMs they should mean? From this information (and the belt pulley diameters) I could reverse calculate the desired motor speed, and check whether my motor matches or not.

mokusbajusz said:

Supposing that SB designed and listed this lathe with specific speeds the motor has to match in order to achieve these. According to the v-belt drive it has 2x4=8 speeds.

Click to expand...

your motor also has a two-step pully on it, that makes it 2x4x2 = 16.

The maximum RPM you should be looking for is approximately 1300 RPM. You should not go much higher than that for this lathe.
it does not matter if the motor is a single phase or a three-phase, as long as it is between a 1/2 to 3/4 HP motor.

the standard RPM for our motors is 1725. But that's for a 60 cycle electrical system. You're working with a 50 cycle electrical system so the RPM would be different. you may need to change the motor pulley size to achieve proper RPM.

but first things first make sure your lathe is in good condition before you think about a new motor.


promacjoe

Sbl

You have lots of work to do.....but first get some penetrating oil on that
lathe......and good luck, packrat2

Like promacjoe says, you can change the motor pulley to re-gear your motor if it is setup a bit fast for the bearings - aluminium V belt pulleys should be reasonably easy to find and relatively inexpensive.

You need to measure all the pulleys to work out what ratios each position will provide and thus determine spindle speed based on motor speed for each ratio.

Quite a lot of people have metric transpose gears these days, even in the US they are finding they occasionally need meric fasteners, and Jeff at Tools4cheap is supplying sets for 9 and 10" lathes. My 13" has english leadscrew etc. but originally would have had transpose gears (I can tell by the cover), my plan is to make some - I have lots of plans, some I will find time to carry out!

Jim

promacjoe said:

your motor also has a two-step pully on it, that makes it 2x4x2 = 16.

Click to expand...

You are right, I didn't consider the two directions, only the pulleys.

but first things first make sure your lathe is in good condition before you think about a new motor.

promacjoe

Click to expand...

I couldn't sleep tonight. My thoughts were about the many steps that are ahead of me. And one of the decisions I came up with is that before I start the painting and other pimp work I will clean only the parts and surfaces which are necessary to be able to check if the functions of the lathe work. That means I'll almost double the work but from some previous projects I learned that it is very frustrating when you think a part is finished (painted, polished, lubricated, etc), and when you try to build it on your machine it turns out that its bore is not tight enough, or a thread is missing and has to be made, etc.
So I do not want to buy a new motor for the moment. I just try to collect as many info as possible, so when it comes to that part of restoration I won't lose time.

it is all well and good to plan how you want to do things. Reading everything you can get your hands on might seem like a good idea at first, but you can get information overload. if you only read the information that relates to what you're doing and then apply it, you will remember it longer.

this is one of those cases where too much information at one time can be disastrous. Take it slow and be methodical in your work.

you're more likely to make mistakes if you get in a hurry.
If you get frustrated with something, take a break. walk away from it and relax. You will find that it is much easier to fix a problem after you thought about it for while.
Also work safely. a safe working environment is more productive.

A couple of tips:

1: take pictures of the lathe before and during disassembly, every nut and bolt. it will help you remember where all the parts go. Also it never hurts to post pictures with the questions that you ask us.

2: keep all the parts in small plastic bags or containers, label them accordingly. Make sure you store them in a safe place until you're ready to reassemble the lathe.

3: don't be afraid to ask questions. Someone here will try to help you. Remember there's no such thing as a dumb question, some of us might give you a dumb answer, but someone else here will correct them.

I have learned over the years, take your time, think things through. you will do a better job, and normally quicker.



promacjoe

Thank you promacjoe for the tips, I'll do accordingly.

No doubt, I'm infected.
The question for today is regarding the bench.

There are 3 basic choices when it comes to bench or stand.
1. original cast legs (no option for me)
2. custom made wooden bench
3. custom made steel bench

I guess the best choice would be the option #3.
I saw them with steel or wooden tabletop as well.
What are their pro's and con's?

I think the importance of the leveling is the accuracy of the lathe.
Does the lathe leveling mean leveling the v-Ways?
The question is how?
I mean leveling only the bench (via its legs) does not necessarily mean that the lathe will be leveled. It would suppose that the bottom plane of the cast bed (that sits on the bench) is parallel with the v-ways. Or is my train of thought wrong? If not, it would make sense to use shims or something similar to compensate the plan deviation between the bench and the lathe.

A sturdy wooden bench or cabinet will be fine.
Each foot of the lathe has a hole to bolt it down - don't just bolt it down, use a levelling screw at each foot so you can micro-adjust each until you get level in all directions. My 13" is shimmed, I do check it from time to time and I dread finding out that one day I need change the shims - it's a heavy lathe to jack up!

If you start looking for books for home/hobby engineering, the engineering practise series are quite good. In the book about 'work holding in the lathe' there is a whole section on levelling, with drawings and explanation of how to make levelling screws for a 9" or similar lathe for a wooden or metal bench. On the other hand it is not difficult to work out for yourself or from pictures here, there are bound to be threads on how best to attach a lathe to a bench

Technically the lathe does not need to be level, it needs to be set up straight and parallel. The easiest way to do this, is to set it up level, because spirit levels are very easy to use. If you have levelling screws between the bench and the lathe you don't have to worry so much about levelling the bench, as long is it is stable.

OK, I've searched the forum for pics about the leveling screws, but unfortunately failed.
However reading all the posts regarding this topic I found that my original thoughts were correct: leveling the bench is good but not essential if you can avoid "twisting" of the bed.

Yesterday I've ordered some plastic boxes for storing "grouped" the disassembled parts. Friday I visit my baby and make some more pics in order to show them to you and make your brain working... :-)

new lathe

Balazs, So glad for you,that you could get a lathe!Good luck with the "Bringing it back to life process"May it bring you much enjoyment. Mike