Spindle taper accessories & tools?

Ronniet · Nov 3, 2012

I have a 11" southbend w/ 1 5/8" X 8 tpi spindle.
I am almost sure the spindle taper is a Southbend Proprietary taper? Not for sure but maybe?
My question is , "is this taper the taper SB uses for its collet adapters? 3C or 5C adapters?"
"And if I were to try to use a faceplate/dog, would I have to make a taper adapter for a MT2 MT3 , Jarno, or what type of center would I use".
"Now if I were to use an adapter/center would it protrude to far forward to allow the dog to use faceplate"?
I know its a lot of questions but am in the process of rebuilding my lathe and want to set up a Faceplate , collet use spindle instead of just a 3 jaw chuck.
I found this article to be interesting.

http://www.sportpilot.info/sp/Use of Accessories Inside the South Bend Head Stock.pdf

This is a link to a picture of the homemade sleeve that came with my lathe, it is rough turned inside and out , it its my spindle taper but protrudes out about 3/4". the insdie of the sleeve fits the MT3 collet in the picture.
sleeve :: MVC-001F_zps8e2cd3d2.jpg picture by rontphoto - Photobucket
any help in what direction I should go is appreciated.
I do not have a thread protector, I guess if I find the correct tooling that allows for collet use , I could make one.
Thanks
R.

traditional-tools · Nov 3, 2012

I think the SB 11 takes a 6K collet, up to 17/32 with 7/8" through spindle. I could be wrong.

No, you do not have 5C unfortunately, AFAIK.

The SB sleeves should allow you to use MT2 in the spindle per The SBL Workshop. Your homemade ones appear to be MT3 from what you say.

Cheers,
Alan

PS - I think these sizes are correct, but not exactly sure if they are 6K collets.

Ronniet · Nov 3, 2012

traditional-tools said:
I think the SB 11 takes a 6K collet, up to 17/32 with 7/8" through spindle. I could be wrong.

No, you do not have 5C unfortunately, AFAIK.

The SB sleeves should allow you to use MT2 in the spindle per The SBL Workshop. Your homemade ones appear to be MT3 from what you say.

Cheers,
Alan

PS - I think these sizes are correct, but not exactly sure if they are 6K collets.

You said "The SB sleeves should allow you to use a MT2 in the spindle....."
which southbend sleeves and where would I find one?
My Tail stock is also a MT2.
And what are 6K collets? Before 3c or 5c?
did SB make a collet adapter and closer for the 6K collets?

traditional-tools · Nov 3, 2012

Ronniet said:
You said "The SB sleeves should allow you to use a MT2 in the spindle....."
which southbend sleeves and where would I find one?
My Tail stock is also a MT2.
And what are 6K collets? Before 3c or 5c?
did SB make a collet adapter and closer for the 6K collets?

Ron,

The document I linked to above said it's a No. 2 taper in the headstock. Typically SB used a sleeve to accomplish that...I have a sleeve on my 10L that allows it to use a MT2 in the headstock also...so it steps down from a 5C to MT2. I also have MT2 in my tailstock...this is no coincidence!

I'm not completely familiar with the 6K collet, but they are unique in themselves and could be a SB taper, that I can't remember. The 6K collets are slightly larger in size and capacity than 3C but not as large as 5C in both regards.

Yes, they did make a collet attachment and that document I linked to was the data sheet, the previous image is the toolroom model of the 11 and you can see the collet attachment with the other toolroom accessories at this link.

All that said, the SB 11 seems to be a kinda in-between model produced in limited years as best I can tell. It seems once SB moved to the S Series headstock (announced in '38, and seemed to get into production in early 40s, the '42 catalogs showed them) they didn't make the 11 anymore, but that I'm not clear on...the 10R has similar capacity, and the 10L has the 5C, so maybe they figured they covered all bases without the 11.

HTH,
Alan

SBLatheman · Nov 3, 2012

The 6K collets were only used in the 10K lathe. I think the 11" used 3C.
Ron, if you will give me measurements of your taper, I will check to see if I have a spindle sleeve(reducer) that will work for you.
Ted

mach2 · Nov 3, 2012

Not a southbend user but could your taper be a Morse #4?

traditional-tools · Nov 3, 2012

SBLatheman said:
The 6K collets were only used in the 10K lathe. I think the 11" used 3C.

Ted,

So that means the 11 is limted to 1/2" collet like the 9, huh?

That's odd (although maybe a part of evolution), it seems to have 1/4" extra through the spindle. The spindle nose is odd also, 1-5/8 8 ??? (seems marginal against the more common 1-1/2 8)

Cheers,
Alan

PS - it was listed as 17/32" collet on the 11 in that catalog from '42, does that mean there's an extra collet hidden in the spec? i.e., why the last size of 5C collets are not accepted in the SB spindle and be able to clear with the collet wall thickness and max size supported. I think this means if there is a 17/32" 3C collet on the Hardinge SPEC, it would fit in the SB 11 ???

kitno455 · Nov 3, 2012

The original was likely 3c, but a 4c should fit, if you made your own collet reducer. The problem then becomes finding collets. Given the low cost and easy availability, I would probably skip the 'in spindle' collets, and make an ER-32 or ER-40 set instead.

allan

Ronniet · Nov 3, 2012

This is news to me, I never ran across a 6K collet nor a 4 C.
I would like to have what is required of my spindle so that the dog plates work and the collet adapter & closer would work.
All I ever had was the home made sleeve that is thin and rough but had a 3mt collet in 1/2" round size that I used much.
No thread protector and a home made closer.
Living life dangerous!
There is no key way inside the spindle, I did think it may be a MT4 taper? A MT3 just drops thru it, I have a B&S #9 collet that is too big and thought it may be a #8 B&S?
I dont have a B&S #8 or and MT4 to try and dont want to buy one to try.
Its hard to measure the taper because, you fist would have some stick out because of the thread protector
which I do not have, so there is not a way to calculate that, but starting from the entrance of the spindle and taking a measurement and then measure to a predetermined length to the rear and take that measurement then one could apply that to tapers to measure if he had them available ?
Makes sense to me anyway.
I will drop you an email Ted.
Ron

traditional-tools · Nov 3, 2012

On 3C collets, I believe that Ron's SB 11 can use a 17/32" per catalog data, and be able to get 17/32" of material through the spindle. The SB 9/10k can't do that because of the smaller trough spindle size. Hardinge has a 5/8" collet listed on their site, Hardinge ECommerce

Bottom line is that the SB 11 can use a 33/64" and 17/32" 3C collet.

Funny, but that is a plus if you order oversize material, you could use oversize 1/2" on the SB 11.

OTOH, maybe I'm misunderstanding something.

Cheers,
Alan

jinglejangle · Nov 3, 2012

Ron,

I bought a bunch of collets off a PM member that was scrapping a model O 11. I have an N series circa 1931. The adaptor is a bit snug so I need to make a thread protector before I try it. Attached is a bunch of photos of the collets, collet adapter, a center fitted for a 3c collet adaptor, and a proper sized center for a dog driver plate. I took measurements for you. I am still in the process of restoring my lathe. All of the collets are 3c.

John

jinglejangle · Nov 3, 2012

More pics. Note the chunk of metal missing from the rim. Someone must have pryed the adaptor out with a screwdriver. The biggest collet I have is a 15/32nd.

John

Ronniet · Nov 3, 2012

John those picture are a big help.
The dead center is used without a sleeve? that measurement that you show on the dead center is my measurements,
I just took the front measurement and it measures exactly 1" at just past the radii. Now I can measure down 3.5 inches and I should get the approx. measurement you have , .852.....
Now is the dead center , shopmade or SB or do you know if it is MT4 ?
I assume the collet dead center is a homemade DC with a straight shaft to fit the collet?
Now one your collet adapter, what is the length behind the front lip and the rear of the adapter?
My 11" has the R model apron and saddle.
I did accidentally buy a "N" model apron for mine that I dont need , it is stripped single wall apron if anyone needs it?
Ron
btw, I have turned a lot of 5/8" round rod with my 3 jaw chuck, it goes thru the spindle fine,
Possibly 3/4" also , will check.

jinglejangle · Nov 3, 2012

reposted adaptor drawing

Ron,

Sorry, I took the measurement but did not put it on the drawing. 1.965 inches.

The dead center is a direct fit with no sleve. Take a look at Spindle Adapter Bushing for South Bend. Miller Machine makes a spindle adaptor bushing for the 11. I was told the 11 uses a MT3 taper but is longer than a standard MT3 so it can stick out far enough to use a dog driver.

The dead center does not look homemade.

I added a pic of the dead center collet. It was made by Hardinge. I buffed over the name so it would show a bit better.

If you have a single wall apron it is most likely an O series. The N series was the first double wall. Post some pics!

5/8 should be the spinde bore.

John

iwananew10K · Nov 3, 2012

this should help. Morse Taper Sizes
i agree that a good option is ER40 - i like mine a lot, a couple dozen collets cover the range all the way to 1"

Ronniet · Nov 3, 2012

jinglejangle said:
Ron,

Sorry, I took the measurement but did not put it on the drawing. 1.965 inches.

The dead center is a direct fit with no sleve. Take a look at Spindle Adapter Bushing for South Bend. Miller Machine makes a spindle adaptor bushing for the 11. I was told the 11 uses a MT3 taper but is longer than a standard MT3 so it can stick out far enough to use a dog driver.

The dead center does not look homemade.

I added a pic of the dead center collet. It was made by Hardinge. I buffed over the name so it would show a bit better.

If you have a single wall apron it is most likely an O series. The N series was the first double wall. Post some pics!

5/8 should be the spinde bore.

John

The spindle bore may be on the taper angle of a MT3? I dont know but an MT3 collet will drop into it
but if it were longer then it may eventully get tight?
But so would a MT4?
I dont have an MT4 to check it with .
I didnt know that Miller machine made the adapters?
So if Miller builds the sdapter for the 11" spindle so I could use a MT2 dead center.
Then I am 1/2 way home.
Would still need to find the collet adapter and closer.
Is it possible that you could get measurements on the closer, I could build one.
Ron

jinglejangle · Nov 3, 2012

no closer here

I am in the same boat as you are with the closer. I bought one off ebay from a SB11. It has a tube just under 5/8" but the tube thread is much bigger than a 3C collet. Someone on PM thought the 3AT collets also work with an 11. I have no clue what would work but my closer does not match the rest of the gear. If someone has one that works with 3C collets could you post some measurements? If you go with a MT2 adaptor it will not be thin plus MT2 is common.

John

kitno455 · Nov 4, 2012

What is the ID and TPI of the tube you got John?

allan

Ronniet · Nov 4, 2012

John, talked with Miller machine and the spindle taper for the 11" is a special taper made by SB for the 11".
It is a MT3 taper that is extended to the 1" large end instead of the .937
Also wanted to let you know that the thru holes on may spindle will allow a 7/8" shaft to go thru.
I thought it would but wanted to make sure.
My 11" was made in 1934 and is an underdrive R model. Dont think they made them past 1937?
If you looked at it one would first think it is a heavy 10 unless you read the tags.
On the collet draw bar you bought, would you want to sell it since it will not fit your adapter/collets?
PM me or email me.
Ron

jinglejangle · Nov 4, 2012

drawbar

Allan,

The drawbar I have has an id of .687 to the thread. It looks to be 18 tpi from the thread gauge I have.

Ron,
1935 is when the 11 stopped being made. Based on the card from SB my lathe was made in 1931 and sold in 1934. Click on the link Collet Types For Various Applications. It lists a SB11 using a 2S collet. I am going to hang on to what I have. I just need to drive out the pin and build a new tube. I dug out a MT3. It also falls through my spindle. Good luck with your lathe.
John

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