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  1. #1
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    Default Tool Post holders

    I am wondering if there is a tool post holder available with a gap large enough to accept the Williams Tool holders,; the size that would be used with a 10L? I was thinking that with all the different holders I have it might be expedient to use them in conjunction with my toolpost.

    Thanks,

    Pete

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    Default tool holders

    Those old Williams and Armstrong tool holders go in the lantern tool post that is probably in a drawer some where near your lathe.I believe the heavy 10 uses the size 0 holders with 1/4" bits.
    The secret to not tearing your hair out(if you have any)while using these ancient implements,is to make a flat washer that puts the tool point on center.The holders have a small range of adjustment,and should not be tilted,as it changes the tool angle as ground.By making a washer or set of washers that put the holder where it needs to be,you eliminate adjustment problems and tool angle problems.
    I have about 50 of them and use them on a 9" workshop lathe a 13" tool room lathe and an old LeBlond 13" engine lathe.The small holders can be used on the larger lathes by adding washers.

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    Suitable flat washers, as advised by k3vyl takes out most of the hassle of using those holders in the lantern tool posts for which they were intended. However in my view a better way is to use single or double slot block holders, either built up or carved from solid, with some sort of indexing arrangement so that they can be always be put back on the compound in the same place. As the Williams / Armstrong lathe tool holders tilt the tool bit upwards (level ones are for shapers) its perfectly feasible to leave the holder fixed and simply interchange bits for different jobs as setting the tool tip to centre height automatically replicates the projection to pretty close limits. The optical type of tool height gauge is effective and simple to make. Basically an inch or so wide bar of thick perspex stood upright on a base with a line at centre height scribed on both sides and a mirror at 45° to look down at them through. When both lines and the tool tip coincide the tip is on centre.

    Three two slot block assemblies complete with Tee nut, stud and locking handle along with a stack of bits template ground to various shapes make up the the very poor mans QC system. One block carries a bent to the right holder for normal turning and a bent to the left holder for facing. The second carries a parting blade and the straight holder used for thread cutting (and chomping lumps out of the chuck if you aren't careful). Why all the book pictures show a straight holder in a lantern I shall never know. Just asking for chuck to slide encounters of the far too close kind. Third one for boring tools, made as appropriate for you tools. Round bar in eccentric collet to set height probably best but use the mutant golf club type if you must.

    Clive

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clive603 View Post
    One block carries a bent to the right holder for normal turning and a bent to the left holder for facing.
    Clive
    Curious as to why left & right holders ?

    A "bent to the left" set to the correct angle with a tool bit ground to 80 degrees included will turn & face with aplomb....as well as giving plenty of chuck & tail stock centre clearance.

    regards

    Brian

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    Quote Originally Posted by pistonskirt View Post
    Curious as to why left & right holders ?
    Er...Um....Well that's what I was shown getting on for 40 years back and it always seemed to make sense.

    Consider the bent to the right tool holder in a two slot block carrying a right hand tool for the default towards chuck turning. Block is set-up so the holder is in the slot closest to the work piece and angled so as to put the side of the tool bit parallel to the faceplate. Tail of the tool holder is angled away from the work so it clears the tail stock, or anything in it but not pointing out so far as to interfere with the top or cross slide handles.

    Facing tool in the bent to the left holder lives in the other slot facing t'other way. In use the block is swung round to put the side of the tool bit parallel to the lathe axis. As before this puts the tail of the holder into, usually, clear air with reasonable tail stock clearance. Swop the bent to left holder into the other slot for a left hand turning tool.

    Inactive tool tip is fairly out of the way, unlike the porcupine with a sore head attitude of a fully loaded 4 way. Can work this way using just two slots of a 4 way but the wider tool post gets in the way rather at times when compared to a purpose made two slot of half the width.

    Clearly working this way makes it very easy to template grind any desired leading edge angle or shape onto the tool bit when you know its going to be held either at 90° to the spindle axis or parallel to it.

    Won't do for all jobs but I found it a decent standard set-up on Portass S, Pools Special, SouthBend 9" C then A and, finally, Heavy 10. The Smart & Brown 1024 I now drive came with a Dickson tool post and "enough" holders. Over three years in and I'm still unconvinced that its a better system overall. The lathe is, of course, beyond reproach.

    Clive

    Clive

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    Default Perhaps I didn't ask my question right:

    I have the Lantern post but would like to use the old holders on my new toolpost. I was wondering if there is a tool holder for the newer tool post that has big enough gap to hold the old tool holders ?

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    How long is a string? (You have not told us what toolpost you have.)

    allan

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    FWIW- i hogged out a standard AXA to accept a size 0 lantern holder- it lost all rigidity on heavy cuts- it would actually twist like the helix of a drill bit- so the tool tip would not only flex down but also to the left(right hand tool) the lantern with the rocker was more solid than that particular arrangement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kitno455 View Post
    How long is a string? (You have not told us what toolpost you have.)

    allan
    It's an AXA 250, I believe. If you were shooting Skeet, a string might be as long as 100 straight .

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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Wass View Post
    I am wondering if there is a tool post holder available with a gap large enough to accept the Williams Tool holders,; the size that would be used with a 10L? I was thinking that with all the different holders I have it might be expedient to use them in conjunction with my toolpost.

    Thanks,

    Pete
    I got a few with my 10K that had extra big slots in them. I can slide 1/2" wide thru with no problem. My lathe came out of an EDM shop so someone there prob enlarged the orig ones...Bob
    Bob Wright Metal Master Fab
    Salem, Ohio Birthplace of the Silver and Deming Drill, all others are copies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Wass View Post
    It's an AXA 250, I believe
    Which appears to take 1/2" shank tools, I have seen 5/8" shank tool holders of the Williams / Armstrong / J&S type, which could be machined down to 1/2"
    but I suspect that you will find the tool bit has to be buried right back into the holder such that the holder will restrict any useful angle.

    Clive
    Thanks for the explanation & I now understand your method, my "daily driver" 1024 has a multi position indexable toolpost & I had sort of forgotten the idea of adjusting the post for angles or swapping tool posts.
    I mostly use insert tooling which I leave indexed & set in their holder but I have one frequent job that chips inserts for fun so I dragged out some old J&S holders & ground up some HSS.
    My 1024 does not have the T slotted compound so swapping tool posts would be even more of a pain.

    regards

    Brian
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails js-drehblitz-011.jpg  

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    Sup all?

    Sorry for bursting in like this but I was just wondering if it's still possible to purchase NEW tool holders like the one shown in the picture above. I looked at Armstrongs' web-site and all they seem to manufacture these days is the tool post (and even that doesn't seem like a complete product). Is there a company somewhere that still manufactures them tool holders, or are they obsolete?

    Thanks a lot, and sorry for taking the thread a bit off topic.

    - Arye Segal.

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    Given the ease with which tool post assemblies, i.e. complete with Tee nut, stud and handle, can be interchanged on the SouthBend top slide it hardly seems worth trying to fit Armstrong / Williams holders into a QC post. Block tool posts are easily made and SouthBend Tee nuts sizes mean they can easily be built up from two pieces of bar stock. I had 5 or 6 posts on the go as the QC system for my Heavy 10.

    QC posts are, fundamentally, designed for use with with the cutting material welded or brazed onto a shank giving easy compensation is needed for tip height lost on regrinds. As the basic tool is flat keeping projection to a minimum for stiffness is easy. Sitting a bit holder in the QC inevitably increases the projection to undesirable levels. With the Armstrong / Williams types getting the tip to the correct height can be difficult too.

    Brians picture shows the British made J&S holder which is laid out differently to the Armstrong / Williams versions with the bit carrier more or less under-slung on a thinner shank. J&S shanks are about the thickness of the tool bit thinner than the Armstrong / Williams equivalent which pretty much disposes of the fit in the tool holder slot and tool tip height problems. Projection is still, objectively, excessive and the shanks are very long so they can get in the way of the handles if not cut off. The the holder in Brians picture would have been about 8" long as supplied. Brians picture also illustrates the potential for tailstock to tool post altercations if the bent to left holder is used for normal turning. Not that this, or the tool projection, is a major problem in his 1024 which, although being the same capacity as a Heavy 10 features 4 inches of tailstock travel and topslide dovetails larger and longer than those on a Heavy 10 cross slide.

    Arye Segal
    Bit holders of this type can still be got from import tool vendors in the UK so presumably supply to Israel should be possible. Quality of the ones I've seen is towards the low end tho'.

    Clive

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    There is no need to use these holders in a QC toolpost, the bit is angled so you can adjust the tip height after regrinding or for plain turning different diameters by sliding it in or out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clive603 View Post
    Arye Segal
    Bit holders of this type can still be got from import tool vendors in the UK so presumably supply to Israel should be possible. Quality of the ones I've seen is towards the low end tho'.
    Second hand holders also appear on ebay quite frequently and usually sell for under £10.

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    Default armstrong

    One of the advantages of using these holders is that when they are not extended,they are quite rigid.The cutting tool is close to the center of the compound.You cant get that with a tool block,QC or homebrew.The block places the point at the edge giving it more leverage to flex.I have 50 some armstrong tool holders in assorted sizes five lantern tool posts,three tool blocks.and countless washers.Most of the holders were orphans,one of the blocks I made,the other two came with their lathes.I have a 9" SBL,a 13" SBL,and a 13" LeBlond regal.The smaller tool holders can be used on all 3 lathes.The great thing about all this clutter is that all kinds of setups are possible.

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    Clive603 & jimwallis: My bad. Google search linked me to a web-page from Armstrongs' web-site that says they still manufacture them. Here's the link: https://www.armstrongtools.com/catal...sp?groupID=201 .

    Thanks!

    - Arye Segal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clive603 View Post
    J&S holder is laid out differently to the Armstrong / Williams versions with the bit carrier more or less under-slung on a thinner shank
    Clive
    I had never noticed that rather fundamental difference

    In which case the OP would most certainly struggle to get down to centre height with 1/2" capacity QC tool blocks & the Armstrong or Williams holders.
    As k3vyl points out, they were clearly designed for lantern tool posts.

    regards

    Brian

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    Default holders

    Mostly I use the little holders in the big lathes,but some fudging is possible in the other direction.I have a bunch of size 2 holders that are for about a 16" lathe.By using a thin washer I can use them on the 13" lathes.They are big and clumsey,but very rigid.These things hold a 3/8" square tool bit.

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    Default A problem I often have

    is the tool post getting too close to the chuck. I find it difficult to use my live center and the tool post.

    Also, I have a bunch of cutting tools for the Williams tool holders, I thought since I have them, why not use them? I hardly ever make heavy cuts with my lathe. I mostly make small things for this and that, never anything big.

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    Default Thanks Bob

    Quote Originally Posted by aametalmaster View Post
    I got a few with my 10K that had extra big slots in them. I can slide 1/2" wide thru with no problem. My lathe came out of an EDM shop so someone there prob enlarged the orig ones...Bob
    can you tell me sometime how wide the gap is in them? If big enough, would you consider parting with one of them?

    Thanks,

    Pete


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