Gear backlash and noise

chip's · Nov 20, 2009

I have tried everything I can think of to quiet the left end gears on my 16" lathe. I have changed the direction of the gears( on the reversing tumbler.) The gears including the spindle gear all look fine. Open gear lube helps some up until about the 300 rpm range. The gears get much nosier at 600 and 900 ranges. With the banjo down the gears are less noisy. Of course the more of the gear train engaged for feeds the more noise.
Is there anything that can be done to quiet the gear train down some? The backlash looks about right on gears that are able to be adjusted.
What, if there is such a thing is a normal amount of noise? Thanks for any help!!

aametalmaster · Nov 20, 2009

My 10K isn't the quietest thing in the world either. Can't say on my 15" and my heavy 10 beacause i haven't heard them run yet...Bob

Grey Rider · Nov 21, 2009

I think it's wise to first remember that straight cut spur gears are probably the loudest gears you can get. They're going to whine, and since there's a lot of them, there will be a lot of whining, and more as the RPM increases. (Think of a car running in reverse). Regarding how much whining is too much, that's probably impossible to diagnose over the internet.

Is it whining that you're hearing, or does it sound like a washing machine full of marbles?

Ryan

chip's · Nov 21, 2009

It is a roaring sound, not a clanking sound. I know spur gears are more noisy than some but it does seem quite loud. I have been told that these should at least run somewhat quiet. That is why I ask because some noise would seem normal to me. Even with the banjo down the noise is still loud. There is no way to adjust the gears on the reverse tumbler, is there? This is a double tumbler machine but I would think the single would be as noisy.

bigmac · Nov 21, 2009

On my 10L, I ended up replacing the outboard spindle gear & both tumbler gears. This, along with proper backlash adjustment, eliminated most noise, but there will always be some.
Many years ago, I had a 13" SB with a single tumbler QC and the sliding gear on the end. If there is any slop on the sliding gear spindle the gears will really sing an aria. Ended up boring & sleeving the gear with super results.
Hope this helps. Ed

mcruff · Nov 21, 2009

bigmac said:
On my 10L, I ended up replacing the outboard spindle gear & both tumbler gears. This, along with proper backlash adjustment, eliminated most noise, but there will always be some.
Many years ago, I had a 13" SB with a single tumbler QC and the sliding gear on the end. If there is any slop on the sliding gear spindle the gears will really sing an aria. Ended up boring & sleeving the gear with super results.
Hope this helps. Ed

I just ordered a bushing from Mcmaster Carr to fix this same problem on
my 9" South Bend, the 80 tooth idler has way to much slop in the bore.

One thing that will help alot on the noise is to run what Jeeper's call knuckle pudding on the gears instead of oil. Its a 50% mixture of 90wt and wheel bearing grease. It makes a huge difference in the noise and it stays for quite a while. I started using it about a year ago.

Dennis Turk · Nov 21, 2009

Noise and wear are the reasons we don't see lathes built like your SB lathes were. What we see today in the modern lathe and let me qualify that statement Modern industrial grade machines is no more than three gears on the outside of the head stock or change box. All other gears are running in an enclosed case with either splash lubrication or in some models pressure fed lube. Especially in the head stock. Even apron gear boxes today are not of the open verity you all have on your SB, Sheldon and other older lathes but are also enclosed gear boxes with splash oiling systems. One other place were you sometimes see an open gear is on the back of the apron were the gear driven by the lead screw or power feed rod will drive through a set of bevel gears but on many of the better lathes today these gears are also enclosed. These new machines also usually use a plastic gear in the idler position rather than a steel gear on the end gear train. These style of machines usually have little or no end gear noise. Ya and the best thing is they don't pee oil all over everything."-)))))

Turk

sicero · Nov 21, 2009

aametalmaster said:
My 10K isn't the quietest thing in the world either. Can't say on my 15" and my heavy 10 beacause i haven't heard them run yet...Bob

Bob, Do you think you might have a problem. I just sold one of mine to get down to two. All in fun. Kenny

Grey Rider · Nov 21, 2009

chip's said:
There is no way to adjust the gears on the reverse tumbler, is there?

I don't believe so. I've had mine apart, and found no convenient way of adjusting those gears.

Dennis Turk said:
Ya and the best thing is they don't pee oil all over everything."

I thought that was a feature!

Ryan

Dconway00 · Nov 22, 2009

Denny T. Wrote "These new machines also usually use a plastic gear in the idler position rather than a steel gear on the end gear train. These style of machines usually have little or no end gear noise."

Are the plastic (probably nylon?) gears in an oil bath generally? Have you ever made or seen a nylon 80 tooth idler gear that would fit a SB?

D.

chip's · Nov 22, 2009

Thanks for all the input everyone! Will the knuckle pudding stuff stay good on the gears or will it fall on the floor? It sounds like a good way to go.

mcruff · Nov 22, 2009

chip's said:
Thanks for all the input everyone! Will the knuckle pudding stuff stay good on the gears or will it fall on the floor? It sounds like a good way to go.

No it should stick quite well, I lube mine about every 6-8 weeks worth of use. I use my lathe about 15-18 hours a week. There is no mess on the floor at all.

EPAIII · Nov 25, 2009

Dconway00 said:
Denny T. Wrote "These new machines also usually use a plastic gear in the idler position rather than a steel gear on the end gear train. These style of machines usually have little or no end gear noise."

Are the plastic (probably nylon?) gears in an oil bath generally? Have you ever made or seen a nylon 80 tooth idler gear that would fit a SB?

D.

Sounds like an idea. Would you make it from all nylon or use a steel insert for the bore? And how does nylon machine with gear tooth cutters?

oldhercus · Nov 26, 2009

My 1960's Kerry lathe (English) was made with a 64 tooth fibre idler gear. Only recently has it worn over a couple of teeth. I cut a replacement from acetal (Delrin) and works fine. The original idea, as stated in the manual, was to reduce noise and it does.
Peter

Dconway00 · Nov 27, 2009

Peter

Do you find the Acetal strong enough for the gear train? Never having seen a Kerry could you post a pic of the end gears with the Acetal gear in place? BTW what is the diameter and thickness of the 64 tooth gear?

Thanks
Dennis

Tray · Nov 27, 2009

Another material that is also used is Tufnol. Regarding thickness you just make it the same as your existing gear. The idea is to have a Tufnol gear mating with a steel ( perhaps I mean cast iron) & not Tufnol to Tufnol. Naturally it is not going to be as strong as the original but if you can cut it yourself why not make a spare ?

Finally one radical solution I saw was conversion to toothed belts using commerically avaliable belts and pulleys - the pulleys are usually supplied with a small bore that can be sized to suit.

I'll see if I can find the image & post shortly

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