Jim;

I agree with you.

You get the quality you pay for or at least a reasonable person should expect that the quality of a $2,000.00 Grizzly lathe will not be the quality of a $16,000.00 Grizzly lathe (made up the number).

To my mind I suspect that in Germany and England during the late 1800's to the early 1900's machinist were discussing the lesser quality of the machines and machine tools that the "upstarts" in America were putting into the market, undercutting the prices of the high quality European machine tools. Later on America's quality was a world standard.

One of the most accurate, most quite, most smooth lathe I have seen is a lathe made in India that a professional machinist has in his shop near my home. It complements his half-million dollar CNC equipment in the shop, even though it is 40 years old and belt drive.

It is a new and different world "out there" Asian countries are moving into the similar position as American moved into a 100 years ago when we entered manufacturing markets held by other countries. Companies like TATA will soon become names we all recogonize, China and India will take automobile business away from the Japanese, because the will be building vehicles of similar quality at lower prices. China and India will become engineering and construction giants, just as America took the engineering and construction business away from the English and French. Remember the Suez canal and later the Panama canal and who(which country) had to finish it?

The South Bends were production lathes that were heavily built to take a lifetime of abuse. In addition, the saddles and tailstocks were built with a large foot print so that precision if not accuracy could be retained even in the face of extreme bed wear.

The South Bends also benefited from the goodness of mass. The real test of a machine tool is not how statically stiff the tool is but how dynamically stiff the tool is. To achieve dynamic stiffness requires mass and a lot of it, hence the popularity of the Heavy 10 even when there were a lot of 10" and even 12" bench lathes available at lower price points.

Today, there is no way to produce a lathe that is as inherently precise as the old South Bends are at a price point that a hobbyist can afford. Just can't hit that sweet spot of mass, size and precision for less than the price of new car. Be happy that there were so many South Bends produced that we can pick them up for practically nothing today.

So give Grizzly some breathing room to see if they can come up with a high quality hobbyist lathe that lives up to the South Bend brand. If they fail, nothing is lost as the brand was defunct anyway. If they succeed, maybe there will be enough cash flow to start building new replacement parts for the old machines at prices hobbyists can afford.

I think this is great news. In my opinion the small lathes (10" swing and less) currently coming out of china have rather poor designs.

Some changes I'd like to see, based on my experience with the 9", that I don't think anyone's mentioned yet.

1) A lever camlock on the tailstock instead of the spanner lock.
2) Have the saddle held down positively on the front way, not just gravity holding it there. This is important given you're putting t-slots on the cross slide.
3) Move the two bolts which lock the topslide to the cross slide around so they face the operator, not away from the operator. Then they don't get in the way of the tailstock and large jobs on the faceplate.
4) Update the cross slide screw thrust bearings so that backlash can be adjusted. Use some decent thrust bearings, not crude steel on steel.
5) If you employ a VFD and poly V belt, could the belt be extra wide so that all the motor power can be used? Could the pin that locks the bull gear to the pulley be updated? Something like the dog clutch mechanism on the boxford.

It's been stated in this thread that the last Southbends were built in Australia. Anyone know who built them?

THEY WERE MADE SPECIAL BY HERCUS

Folks,

If you want to take up the general topic of Asian/Indian/USA manufactured machinery, Grizzly vs. Harbor Freight vs. Busy Bee vs. Whoever, I suggest you start a thread over on the General New forum. (And see how long it lasts.) The whole subject has been discussed to death, and there are no new stones to be turned here. Whatever the cause, or causes, the situation is what it is, and you can decide to buy or not, based on your own opinions, biases, and expectations. If you have something worthwhile to add to this discussion, aside from that tired lament, then feel free to weigh in.

Yes, this thread began as a solicitation of opinions, but it is my opinion that when Mr. Baliolia chose to enter the discussion, patiently outlining his plans for the South Bend brand, and respectfully responding to our ideas for the direction the new product should take, he raised the bar of decorum for this thread, and I intend for that attitude to be met in kind. Take your bitching and quasi-racist commentary somewhere else.

I might also point out that South Bend’s primary focus was the school/home shop market, and thus falls largely outside the purview of this website’s charter, at least as it is now defined. Our forum exists here at the pleasure of Mr. Thomas, and I think it serves our interests to keep the tone of our discussions civil, and tread carefully those topics which have been deemed unacceptable by him. In that regard, the present one is tenuous, at best. It is most certainly SB-relevant, but there is significant overlap with the Asian/home shop machinery topic. I don’t know about the rest of you, but I would like to see this forum continue, and will therefore take whatever actions I feel necessary to keep the discussion from becoming counter-productive. If some of you see that as censorship or quashing dissent, then so be it.

Paula

Marc, why would you automatically assume that my comment was aimed at you? There were a couple of posts deleted from this thread that were overtly-racist, and needed to be removed. If you choose to be offended, I can't help that.

Paula

Ok I think this whole thread has gone to far... enough already. So Grizzly Tool bought South Bend Lathe's trademark and parts inventory form LeBlonde, big deal. Chrysler is merging with Fiat, Circuit City is now defunked, that is just business.

Still the prodcuts were are discussing don't exist yet, and we have no idea what to expect untill they are built. Either South Bend will have great equipment and there will be a high quality small lathe available on the market again, or it will be middle of the road and unable to comete with the chinese and eventually fail. In either case the discussion on this forum will NOT affect the outcome, so KNOCK IT OFF!

This thread is the reason "asian home shop" machines are NOT discussed on this forum and I am beginning to see the wisdom that policy. If this kind of thing continues I am afraid that "he who shall remain nameless" will boot South Bend from PM forum for having no relevance in the site's content and we will all be screwed.

Paula in my opinion I think you should post a "sticky" about the Grizzly aquisition of south bend and delete this thread or close it. This thread while well intentioned is not doing anyone any good anymore. If Papa Grizzly wants to ask questions of us about features and new product design that is really fantastic, anything else is really not worth this.... is it?

The analogy of why I did not respond to your elitist tirade is this:

" I am walking down a road and there is a vicious dog in a fenced yard. He is barking furiously, seething, dog saliva leaving a trail as he follows me within the fenced yard. He wants at me, wants me to turn and look at him, wants me to bark back at him. But why should I? There is NOTHING he can do to me. He is, after all, a "caged" dog!

And, Paula, I am sorry that besides my integrity, yours is also being questioned.

Apt analogy. I like it.

We're not all mad dogs.

With all due humility, may I make an observation or two on what I parse out here?

I'm as red-blooded, 1911A1 tottin', still-crazed-from-Viet Nam, sutured-from-swarf as the next participant. There are two threads running concurrently, here.

On the one hand, there's a fellow comes along and says, hey, I just bought what's left of South Bend, and I'm gunna start making them outa' Taiwan with some critical Japanese components, so waddya think and got any ideas?

On the other hand, there's condemnation of Communist China and India's output.

I don't get the connection.

And Second Amendment or not, this is a privately owned Forum with delegated authority.

Wally.

Damn it! Don't quote my words while flamming someone, I am trying to end this madness not contribute to it!

EDIT:Quoted Post was deleted.

Quote: "Beam me up."

Lets get real, people. I'v ben using South Bends on and off for about 40 years, I still have the 16" that I got right after high school. I use it a lot, but I'll always use the LeBlond that sits next to it first. There are a lot better lathes around than any SB. So lets all just zip our lips and see what sort of machine Papa builds. He is taking a big financial risk, so I think he will do his best. Papa, anything I can do to help?

Excuse me, I have not only the right, but the obligation, when I feel that it promotes the best interests of this forum. As much as you would like to believe otherwise, this forum is not a tenement wall for the scrawling of graffiti messages to the world. The overwhelming majority of forum members post here because it provides a friendly environment for the exchange of information and assistance, without having to deal with disruptive, extreme, or otherwise disrespectful commentary. And it is the moderator's job to decide what constitutes the latter, and deal with it appropriately. If you have a problem with this system, I suggest you contact the owner of the website and apply for the job yourself.

Paula

Hello,

I usually don't post because I either don't have anything to add due to lack of experience or I have a question to ask.

However, consider this:

I work in IT and, at one time, worked on the computers of some of the Vice Presidents of a fairly large corporation. What I found was that the VP would not speak with me. Instead, he would communicate with me through his secretary and would never be around for me to troubleshoot his computer. In fact, I had to schedule troubleshooting time with his secretary, when he wouldn't be around. Since I was receiving second-hand information, on a rather technical subject from 2 non-IT savy people, figuring out what was wrong was 10 times more challenging that fixing the problem.

In this case, we have the President of a big company conversing with us on an internet forum. Whether his motives are sales, to get ideas and feedback, or both really doesn't matter. Personally, I have to give him credit as he apparently does not feel that he sits in an "ivory tower" above us "rubes." So give the guy a break.

(On another note, I wonder if the former CEO of GM would have posted on an internet forum to talk to people about his products.)

That being said, I have bought from both Grizzly and Enco as both companies have a similar product line. (I usually buy from Enco, as they are out-of-state (sales tax) and they have free shipping.) However, just last week, I bought Grizzly's 20" 12-speed 300+ pound drill press (w/free shipping) and it appears to be pretty nice...even though I haven't used it yet.

Oh, yeah, my machine shop includes a SouthBend 13x40 and a SouthBend 7" shaper...among other things.

I am hoping that some of the SouthBend 13" parts come available again....maybe even a new lathe bed?

Regards,

Brian

Srwaa - good suggestions, appreciate the input. Do you have a picture of the dog clutch mechanism on the Boxford?

Wally - you are supposed to say "Scotty" first

Moonlight - I welcome any and all suggestions. The first one I am working on is the 10K. The next one will be the Heavy 10. There were some very good suggestions that were made on another thread I had started before the SB deal closed. The third one will be a 9". Anyone got a mint, late model one to sell? I'll start another thread for the 9". The big lathes are done, but they are heavy duty three phase industrial machines.

This thread has been very informative and interesting. Too bad that some have to get personal with Archie Bunker-like comments. Oh, well - it takes all kinds.

(LMAO) I didn't want to favor any nationalities.

I'm (long ago) Scottish.

Though, at the risk of becoming one of the tiresome, one of the limitations (frequently cited) is the generally slow speeds of SBL. I gave myself a slight headache trying to engineer this one in my head, but with your expressed interest (IIRC) in mebbe using ball/roller/angular contact type bearings....

Bridgeport achieved a real measure of success in their M-heads by having qualified bearings and installing a 3x speed motor. (Sounds like a small Gulfstream spooling up.) They also used "sealed for life" bearings if the machine was to be used for wood working, in which case the total-loss dripping oil lubrication would have been intolerable. I've got one in the works and intend to hang it on the back end of a "v" ram. Lots more useful than a slotting attachment.

Geeze, I took a day off of this thread and you guys made Paula get out the big stick?
I guess I have to tune in more regular like

Papagrizzly,
Good on you for trying something like this in this economic mess where in at present. I wish you success, and suspect that, with you're track record at Grizzly, you'll "get -r-done"

Jim

Papa, how about sealing the end cover over the gear train and running it in an oil bath, Q C box also.......

I'm having a lot of fun (with mental images) reading the list of desired improvements!

On the one hand, if all the improvements are incorporated we'll have a modern, cutting edge (yet non-CNC) engine lathe. It wouldn't even resemble the 'ol South Bend.

On the other hand we'll have an 'original' South Bend lathe that's been improved by fixing the few things time has shown us could use improvement.

I'm not 'voting' one way or the other but I know I can count on one thing: These new lathes will create way more discussion than this thread has seen yet. "Ya' should've" or "Ya' didn't" or "Why?"........

I'm confident that the new owners of SB want to do the best possible job with the new machines. I don't think we will see any corner cutting in any areas that matter. At least nothing worse than SB historically had done!

Just think about it. While most SB owners can point out some part of their machine that they don't like, how many can honestly say that 'defect' actually affects the utility of the machine?

I'm just thrilled that the President of a major machine tool outfit is seeking out information from users, restorers, collectors and (my gosh!) home hobbyists.

More power to 'ya Shiraz!!

Pete