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Thread: Machine Porn: These gal's got some hips...

  1. #161
    kuraki556 is offline Cast Iron
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    psychomill, I'm curious if you ever got satisfaction with the "fixes" to your 1250 installations. We recently purchased an FA800 and went through nearly the exact same issues you described here, though on a smaller scale. Now we're looking very seriously at a 1250 and let's just say I'm hesitant to put my name on a $1 mil +/- investment recommendation after our previous experience.

  2. #162
    cncbrit is offline Hot Rolled
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    Quote Originally Posted by psychomill View Post
    Loading parts on this machine is getting to be tiresome everyday too. Even with a gantry it's a severe pain in the ass and super dangerous. With all the safety crap they put on these things, the dumb asses make the loading area/pallet changer the most dangerous place to be on the machine and that's where you spend most of your time! For whatever reason, Toyoda/JTEKT decided to build a 1250mm HMC with a pallet changer where the tables can't be rotated once outside on the load stations!!! You try loading a 5 inch plate at 60 inches square on the backside of a 64 x 70 tombstone and not be able to rotate the tombstone to face you. We have to bring the part around the stone, get it between the APC door and setup, then load it. And that deck up there is slicker than snot. Many guys have taken a tumble and there are many places to jack you up and get hurt real bad up there.
    26 years ago Cincinnati Milacron had an Pallet load unload station where you could not only rotate the pallet but could lay it over on its side, so said block of material could be fork lifted on to the side of a tombstone flat, and wiggled into place by hand.

  3. #163
    SND
    SND is offline Diamond
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    I'm kinda curious about the outcome as well, have they paid for themselves yet??
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  4. #164
    psychomill is offline Titanium
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    I hate to say this but..... Not a red cent is made here yet.

    BUT!!!!!

    I will say that the newer 1250s are much better because of our machines. I've received many photos and info of newer installs around the globe that have many of the fixes and enhancements that our machines went through. The problem with my 1250s at this point is that they are Frankensteins in terms of the FH1250 configuration as they stand today. Unfortunately, our machines are very hard to work on because of the endless list of problems they had coming into the door. Just remember..... mine were one of the first ones in the world (with only two I think in front of mine for a completely different application).

    It's odd that you had issues with you FA800s..... I considered that one a fairly stable machine along with the 500 and 1050s.

    I wouldn't necessarily shy away from another 1250.... but I would certainly put conditions in the sale. The 310i is garbaged something fierce due to the HMI/OP Supporter overlay and Toyoda stripped the FANUC side so bad that you can't run it independant. I've heard this is much better now but I have my doubts.

    the major factor is going to be, what is it that you need it for? How much power you need? How much chip removal effect? and what types of Controller power/capability you need. Make sure you look into all of these things and don't knock on not looking at the competition....

    The pallet not rotating deal still chaps my hide in a big way. What kind of screwball idea is that? Also.... putting these things on a FMS is a major ordeal and JTEKT doesn't have one (marketed anyway. There's one built as a test in Japan but .....).

  5. #165
    D. Rey is offline Titanium
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    Quote Originally Posted by psychomill View Post
    I hate to say this but..... Not a red cent is made here yet.
    That's pretty incredible.

    Should have bought a dozen Haas machines.

    LOL

    *ducks and runs for cover*
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  6. #166
    Tonytn36 is offline Diamond
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    Quote Originally Posted by D. Rey View Post
    That's pretty incredible.

    Should have bought a dozen Haas machines.

    LOL

    *ducks and runs for cover*

    A Haas wouldn't have made it 2 days with psycho at the controls......
    mbraddock likes this.

  7. #167
    psychomill is offline Titanium
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    LOL...... and I've smoked my share of 'em!


    Anyhow Kuraki556..... make your own determination of them. I don't care for the ones I have and they're not worth the iron they're made of. However, as I've mentioned several times over the life of this string, I have the earliest ones anywhere. JTEKT and TMU are making strides and have made much improvements with these machines. Toyoda certainly has good machinery unfortunately, the FH1250 had a bad start.

    The application you need to use them for will really dictate whether or not the 1250 is right for you..... Ask the questions, get confident answers and work out any support needs up front.

    I will say one thing though.... If your set ups require the pallet to be able to rotate out on the loading stations.... Then don't bother even looking at the FH1250 unless TMU/JTEKT is willing to redesign this. AFAIK, the load stations are still a fixed design today..... not sure what brainiac came up with that idea....

  8. #168
    cncbrit is offline Hot Rolled
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    Quote Originally Posted by psychomill View Post
    I will say one thing though.... If your set ups require the pallet to be able to rotate out on the loading stations.... Then don't bother even looking at the FH1250 unless TMU/JTEKT is willing to redesign this. AFAIK, the load stations are still a fixed design today..... not sure what brainiac came up with that idea....
    What prevented you from making your own?

    Use your spare parts budget to get yourself an extra saddle with the pallet holding mechanism, bolt it to a low table, close to the machines, power it up to make sure it works and is ready to go for immediate change over. Maybe at the second load station location. Those complicated 4th axis things go bad all the time

    Or maybe you forgot to un-crate the ROV that takes the pallet from the load station to the, air conditioned, part loading unloading room.

    Of course I am one to talk, I load my horizontals through the operator door.

  9. #169
    psychomill is offline Titanium
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    Nothing stops me really..... just don't get why Toyoda would build such a thing...

    The design of the loading stations and the pallet cradle doesn't make it as simple as it seems. Basically the whole front end of the machine needs to be redesigned and built.

    As for the ROV.... No thought was put into the machine design for that either even though we told them we would be looking to put one in. I have some concept drawings but anyhow....

    You got me thinking about the air-conditioned loading area though.... that's worth building!




    PS: of course my shop is fully air-condtioned already though...

  10. #170
    cncbrit is offline Hot Rolled
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    Oh that's it, I guess I assumed there was more. That setup is almost not useful. Need to get out the sawzall and extend those tracks out to proper load unload stations.

  11. #171
    kuraki556 is offline Cast Iron
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    Ultimately we have no other choice. Lead times on machine delivery is dictating our purchase almost as much as capability. Thanks for responding and telling your tale.

  12. #172
    psychomill is offline Titanium
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    Kuraki.... Please make sure you understand the following and get this taken care of UP FRONT BEFORE YOU BUY....

    Toyoda's lead times are so good because they buy these machine "cookie cutter" style out of Japan. They've done this for years with many models. I imagine they have several 1250 machines floating around Long Beach waiting for buyers. But because they do this, they can get the machine on your floor very quickly.
    HOWEVER, depending on how you load up the options will dictate exactly how long it will take for them to get the machine ready on your floor. YES, I'm saying that retrofits, conversions, add-ons, options, ladder loading/testing, etc may be done all on your floor. So, in reality, you need to add this time frame to the Toyoda delivery. If you have a boat load of options, your actual time frame to get the machine released to you may not be any faster than a competitor landing a machine fully configured to you.

    Toyoda doesn't openly tell you how the machcine will come and what mods will need to be done on your floor once it does come in. If you're going through the purchase with a vendor, they won't know any better either unless you specifically ask the question. Then, make it part of the agreement and get a gant chart by them for the COMPLETE INSTALL.

    This is piss-poor sales tactics, total crock of shit and I will hold this grudge over them for a very long time. I have no issues with many of their service guys, applications, and engineers that I've spent so much time with side by side, on the phone and emails. But there's a good list of 'em that have a long way to go to gain any real respectability back into Toyoda for me.

    It's sad to think that the next time I look to buy a Toyoda that I have to go over a laundry list of stuff to make sure they didn't jack off a bunch of stuff. The way I see it them right now, is instead of being forthcoming about the entire package, they'd rather take the "dont' ask, don't tell" approach. Kind of moranic for a company so well established.....

    Perhaps I'm bitter and maybe some might even say it's unfair to Toyoda because of the "new model machine" experience I'm still going through. Maybe they're right.... But these machines had trouble doing even the most basic CNC functions.... "REALLY?!?!"

    I don't doubt that the 1250 of today is not anything like the 1250s I have. But I do know how TMU buys these things and parks them. And for that, I strongly suggest you have the timelines worked out TO THE DAY of when they plan on handing you the keys.... preferrably before you sign anything...


    Good Luck....

  13. #173
    kuraki556 is offline Cast Iron
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    We're up and running. While it wasn't completely trouble free, it ended up being a 1 week over run on the installation from the agreed upon time frame. We haven't had the opportunity to really press the machine, but it's making chips on a couple part numbers and "so far so good."

    It really looks impressive

    Time will tell. My greatest concern being chip evacuation, since these Toyoda HMCs seem to have chip augers that would be more at home in a VF2.

    But then, I'm biased on that, since the Kuraki boring machine I cut my teeth on had a chip auger you could throw a cow in on one end and expect hamburger to come out the discharge.

  14. #174
    psychomill is offline Titanium
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    chip evac is a major problem and it still is with our machines to this day. The tiny screws Toyoda uses is a joke, especially at the speed they run at.

    Our machines had all the screws swapped out for faster pitch and the all the motors swapped out for more power and speed...... still not there yet.

    Plus the Z-axis way covers are too flat on top. I end up with a 2 foot tall pile of chips in no time and when that falls over into the augers... BOOM! machine e-stop......

  15. #175
    TimD is offline Cast Iron
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    Quote Originally Posted by psychomill View Post
    chip evac is a major problem and it still is with our machines to this day. The tiny screws Toyoda uses is a joke, especially at the speed they run at.

    Our machines had all the screws swapped out for faster pitch and the all the motors swapped out for more power and speed...... still not there yet.

    Plus the Z-axis way covers are too flat on top. I end up with a 2 foot tall pile of chips in no time and when that falls over into the augers... BOOM! machine e-stop......
    How did things ever end up with this install? Are the machines making money yet? Just curious.

  16. #176
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    Does this answer your question?:











    2008 Toyoda FH-1250SX















    Machine Specs:

    Control: Fanuc

    Pallet Size: 49.2" x 49.2"

    Travels: 86" x 63" x 73"

    Taper: 50

    Spindle Speed: 15,000 RPM

    Main Motor: 40HP

    ATC Position: 330

    Pallet Indexing: .001 Degree

    Number of Pallets: 2






    Equipped With:

    Fanuc 310i
    BIG+CT50
    4th AXIS
    1000 PSI CTS
    330 Matrix ATC


    Be sure to call us if you're buying or selling any used cnc
    lathes, used cnc verticals, or used cnc horizontal machining centers. Premier
    has 100's of more used cnc machines available. Although we specialize in used
    Mazak CNC machines we carry all other used cnc brands as well for example used
    Haas, used Okuma, used Mori Seiki, used Nakamura, used Kitamura, used Doosan and
    used Makino. Please call us at 407-786-2000 to speak to your used cnc salesman.
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    options, rigging and trucking quotes. Our in-house service department
    reconditions and repairs all types of used cnc machinery. We can provide top
    dollar for your trade in used cnc equipment or outright
    purchase.


















    2008 Toyoda FH-1250SX | Premier Equipment Inc.

  17. #177
    TimD is offline Cast Iron
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    Yep sure does...

  18. #178
    gorrilla is offline Stainless
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    Your welcome, stevo1. I keep waiting for that option, but haven't found it yet. Don't mean it aint needed though.

  19. #179
    psychomill is offline Titanium
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    Wow... has it been that long?

    We make some money on them and I will say that due to the work envelope and tool magazine (not the tool count but the physical size of tools you can stuff in this thing), it has certainly made some ground with all of the earlier issues I've had. One thing to note (and I probably haven't remarked about it enough through the life of this thread) is that eventually, you'll find work that works with the machines.... any machine.

    Profitability is one thing and margins are another. But, I think if someone took these and stuffed a 10k or better yet, a 7k (8k?) Hi-Torque spindle in here to cut some iron or steel, these will do very well. The 1250 is not short of capacity, envelope, weight on the table.... Add to that, I have every option under the sun (spindle probe, Tool eye probe, 330 Tool magazine, 1000PSI coolant, hi dump conveyors, hi-speed/hi smoothing controls, and etc, etc, etc....). It's that I cut more aluminum than anything else and at very high feed rates so it's not in my game to swap spindles but .... you never know, the oppurtunity might present itself. In the meantime, I've got lots of new stuff to get going and play with....

  20. #180
    tc1999 is offline Hot Rolled
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    Quote Originally Posted by psychomill View Post
    In the meantime, I've got lots of new stuff to get going and play with....
    I'm assuming those won't be posted in this forum?

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