I was pretty much sold on the Toyoda BM1600 until I read the website more closely and discovered that the machines are manufactured by Awea of Taiwan. I have absolutely nothing against Taiwan, but for that kind of coin, maybe I'm better off with a Mori MV-653.
Has anyone here seen both of them? How do they stack up?
I hear ya. It hard to know who owns who much less all of the re branding going on. Thats why this time around I want to stay with known company's. But look at Mori, they have the the dura line. Everybody says they are built side by side, same everything...except the price. That is so unbelievable its funny. If they were the same they would cost the same
Unless they have gotten a free pass on misrepresentation, they are made in the very same factory.
The difference? Not sure on the mills, but at $100K+ I would not say there is too much price advantage.
On the lathes though, 2 axis only (at this time anyway), not a true slant, limited options, re-use existing stuff when possible, bottom line controller, rather small footprint, belt drive spindle... that's how the price is manageable.
Having said that other than the lack of thermal compensation, the DuraTurn is as solid of a machinetool as it gets. No skimping on quality or precision which goes to show that you don't need China to reduce product price.
And yes, according to all manuals, books, documentation, advertising, magazine articles, reports... they are completely built in the island of Japan.
Not saying that they aren't a great machine, don't know either way personally. But what users and salesmen keep saying is there is no or very little difference just cheaper. Thats the part that is bull...if it was the same it wouldn't have a different name and wouldn't be cheaper :rolleyes:
What differences are you expecting and what's wrong with a brand name company trying to reduce costs on a certain line of machine as long as it does not sacrifice quality?
At least on the Mori's Dura line, you get what is offered. Done.
No options, customizations, tweaks, accessories. What's in the flyer is what's on the machine and nothing more.
Sometimes a standardized production line with absolutely no deviation can make big difference in the final cost of a product.
Mechanical differences are what I've mentioned. I thing the dual wound integrated spindle motor alone is in the neighborhood of 10K extra. In the Dura it's multiple drivebelts and a stout headstock. No machining to the turret housing as it is just a turret with no live tools. The turret itself is identical to the NL series without live tools ( so I was told, and is it is freaggin' HUGE!!! ) No provisions for live tool drives and gearbox. No possibility for 2nd spindle. Manual tailstock with hydraulic quill is standard on all. No slant bed just a wide track double roller linear guide, just like the NL-s or every other Mori machine. No spindle options, no turret options, no control options.
Here is the blueprint, make'm all the same.
When I see 1 manufacturer with machines sold under a bunch of different names I always wonder if each company that asks for their name on it also asks for some special "better" components, or if it really is just all the exact same machine with a different paint job. I doubt there's any true way to know unless you rip them all apart, as if you ask them all they'll all way they have the best.
Do you know if theres any significant $ differences between them?
Either way, seems that if money is somewhat close between Toyoda and a Mori, at least with the Mori you're sure of what you're getting. Now if you said the Mori is twice the price then its a different story.
The DuraTurn series of lathes are Hitachi's made by Mori. The roller guideways on a DuraTurn are exactly the same as the ones on Hitachi's HT lathes. We have couple of Hitachi HT-20's and the guides on the DuraTurn are exactly like the Hitachi's. Mori kept a lot of the Hitachi engineers when the company was purchased by Mori. The NL series of lathes has several features that are Hitachi in origin-the cooling on the drive cabinet, Seicos multi control, tool presetter arm, etc.. The same is true for the DuraTurn. What it boils down to is that a DuraTurn is a Hitachi/Mori, while NL is a Mori/Hitachi. Good features from both designs have been incorporated in the DuraTurn and NL series of turning centers.
Seymore you are correct, the turret on the Dura is massive! We purchased a NL2000MC(delivery here late March) but seriously considered the Dura. Got the NL for the live tooling. If the Dura is anything like our Hitachi,s it is a damn good machine for a reasonable price.
You are just not listening , so I will type s l o w. I didn't say there was anything wrong with anything the dura line.
B u t if you bought it just don't tell me that they are the SAME as the NL.
Might be a fine machine...for their second line machine...but not the SAME.
See, now that wasn't so hard
The Mori NL series are box way for X & Z, and integral spindle motor. The Dura series is linear guide throughout, with belt drive spindle. Two different animals.
It's possible, but I'm just not sure if I want to risk being disappointed with a very expensive purchase.
Originally Posted by SND
I'm also a bit annoyed by the banner on ToyodaUSA's website that says, "Kaizen - We embrace the Japanese practice of continuous improvement". Right. By becoming a US distributor of Taiwanese machine tools? :mad:
I'm under the impression that they're fairly close. The Toyoda is already a good $50-75k above the Sharp SV-6030 and the Haas VF-6. I'll find out on Monday.
Originally Posted by SND
Does anyone know now that they upgraded the controller to the MAPSIII version on all dura models, did anything else get upgraded/rated as a result? Airborne, you must be on a buying spree, 1st a NL now a new vertical.
Last edited by JDPN; 03-02-2008 at 09:11 PM.
Reason: Point already established/made obsolete
I stand corrected on the linear ways. After peeling through a bunch of nonsense there was a description on the NL-s having box ways.
For some reason I remembered seeing an article in the past about Mori switching to all roller-linear ways on all machines. Wrong I was... again.
I did not say they were the same, nor did I try to imply it.
I only responded to the fact that it was made somewhere else and to lesser quality!! standards. Note the word Quality standards!! It wasn't.
They are not the same nor should they be sold and advertised as such.
Nor are they priced as such.
Got a feeling that salesmen don't really know that much about product. What they know about is selling.
Linear Ways V Box Ways and live tooling v no live tooling those are pretty big differences.
That said the Dura is very likely a really good value and capable machine. It might be everything you need.
Originally Posted by Airborne
All Japanese makes outsource. All of them. Shoot, OKK's are made by the Chinese. The Japanese mentality of putting machines together applies to there suppliers as well. For example, we had a problem on a Toyoda VMC, until that problem was fixed, Toyoda cut off all payment to that supplier, and, all related suppliers until the problem was fixed.
The BM1600 is an outstanding machine. We have sold a ton of them, and are reliable, solid machines. All around, I think you would make a good choice with going with them.
if it Taiwanese you are worried about, then you should look a little harder at all machines built in Japan. For instance, your curivc coupling on that new Mori is made is Korea. Its the most important high presicion part on the machine. Did they have to disclose that to you? How about that built in motor in the turret? That is no Fanuc motor. know were that was built? Most Japanese builders get all of there casting from China. Bearings built in Germany. Castings poured in china, guard work stamped in Taiwan....
What I am saying is just because the machine is assembled someplace other than Japan (See Hardinge, Hurco, Mazak, Okuma, OKK and Cincinnati for other examples) does not meant he philosophies of putting the machine together are lost. They are solid machines, and even though I get nothing out of it, as Selway is your dealer, give me a PM and I will give you references to guys that have these and love them.
It's not the outsourcing that I'm concerned about, and it's certainly not the country of origin. What's confusing me is this... does Awea build these machines based on Toyoda designs or did Toyoda merely get their names painted on existing Awea machines with slight tweaks?
Also, since I haven't seen any A/B comparisons between two different Taiwanese makes, it's difficult for me to discern who makes higher quality products. Perhaps someone can enlighten me as to why the BM1600 would be a better value than a similarly sized, lower priced Sharp SV-6030A (also a 50-taper machine). The Sharp has a slower spindle, slower rapids, holds 6 fewer tools, etc, but there's gotta be more that justifies the huge price gap.
What kind of motor is it and where is it built?
Originally Posted by vmcman
I was pretty much sold on the Toyoda BM1600 until I read the website more closely and discovered that the machines are manufactured by Awea of Taiwan. Has anyone here seen both of them? How do they stack up?
I actually caught a salesman trying to push this "Japanese" machine on me early last year. He was completely unaware that that particular Toyoda model he was selling was made in Taiwan.:rolleyes:
Originally Posted by Blue Steel
I am not familiar with the Sharp, but I know that Toyoda packages a 18iMB control on the machine, were most put on a 0i that is not high speed or 4th axis capable. I also know that Toyoda includes many of the Fanuc options that other guys nickel and dime you for. Let us know how you make out. And if I can help give me a shout.
Originally Posted by Airborne
The important question is, are the Toyodas for sale here in the US a Toyoda design built in Taiwan, or simply a rebadged Taiwanese machine??
I'm thinking the verticals, at least, are a rebadged Taiwanese designed and built machine.
That is true, the Sharp and others come with the 0i-MC. After a decent spec, it's up by at least $30k.
Originally Posted by vmcman
We are still heavily considering the Toyoda. Selway is sending us some info this week. It certainly appears to be one of the nicer built Taiwanese machines with a very good standard spec.
Also, Mori's pricing on VMCs may be quite a bit higher than what some people suggested in previous posts. Perhaps they were referring to the Duracenter series. We shall see.