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Thread: Toyoda VMCs
03-04-2008, 02:50 PM #21
Is there anyway you could possible get a package deal if you buy the MV-653 and the NL2500SY together? You never know.
03-04-2008, 04:19 PM #22
Don't have any personal knowledge about the Sharp, but I don't think you could compare the Haas to the Toy in that size range. I would think that the Toy would be a beast in comparison. Sounds like a good time to kick the tires on one. Selway has got to have sold one somewhat close to you.
03-04-2008, 07:34 PM #23
03-04-2008, 08:11 PM #24
I will buy a VMC in the BM1600 size in the spring.While in Chicago for Fabtech last fall I visited Toyoda and Enshu installations as I also consider an EV650 as well as other. Both had great part inventory with pretty well anything that could go wrong with their machines including spindles. Toyoda has a control temp. room to rebuild spindle in their Chicago headquarter. Both had services and tech support department that can be reach by phone if you need answer. I will probably make a decision at the next machine tool show I attend. Some manufacturer I cross off my list was because they couldn`t give a VMC base price without knowing the day I was born or Somebody will call you back they haven`t made the sale yet, what will it be when they have my money? The more I read the more confuse I get. I will be watching what you get.
03-05-2008, 02:33 AM #25
Well, had to chime in....
We have a Toyoda BM1400 siting outside the shop RIGHT now...driver showed up a day early (Tuesday @ noon), and riggers are scheduled at 07:00 Wednesday, so he's camped out in the yard.
Not sure if I am trying to justify my decision, but the Toyoda specs are a bit different than the Mighty/Awea. I took a quick look...rapids are slower, weight is less, the spindle is a 15/20hp vs. 25/30hp, 16/20/24(opt) vs. 30/40(opt) toy changer, and no idea of the control. Not sure how it all shakes out, but on paper, they appear to be different. Just adding to your confusion.
I think the price thing on the Dura line (either VMC's or Lathes) gets the confusion factor up pretty high on the rest of the Mori line. As I recall, the 40" Duramill is in the $125k range...but the NV or whatever from the high end line in the same size puts you at or above a Matsuura, Okuma or Makino. If you go large on a Mori (like 1600+mm), I would not be surprised to see $300k or better...but I am not sure. I would also be looking at a Makino if you want to spend that kind of money...but if you go watch one, don't blink, you may miss a tool change. In a previous life, quite a few years ago, when Matsuura still built a 2000mm VMC...I inquired in passing on price "just to make sure" ~ $500k - hard to justify when a $125k Haas would do the work we had at hand. Ask for pricing on these to make sure they are or are not in your budget, and if you need the extra performance that these high end machines will deliver over their exceptionally long life.
I think Seymour hit it, make one design, one blueprint, no options other than "dealer installed" like a HP-TSC or chip conveyor. One thing to remember, all of the good manufacturers document the as-built configuration of the machine with drawings and wiring and options...how much engineering time and expense can you save when all of them are alike? I think they have made the Model T of machine tools...but with better components, "any color you want as long as it is black". How efficient could your shop be if you only built one model (or two or three length variations of the same thing)? How well would you do on time/money on the third run of 500 parts off your machines now...most of us are making good money at that point - I am sure the machine builders can do production pretty well too.
One thing that is not mentioned anywhere here is your local dealer. These guys can make or break you at crunch time - do they have the resources (everything you can think of from manpower to financial strength to weather an economic storm [NOT naysaying, but a consideration] to inventory to knowledge base to ???). There seems to be so many machine tool builders and in reality, few "local" dealers to distribute them. Come every IMTS show, they (builders and dealers) go shopping to gain market share, so check the dealer's references and look for established dealers with long standing relationships with the manufacturers they represent. You want them to be the Maytag guy...never having to call, but when you need them, you need them badly, and NOW! Everything mechanical will break or wear out at some point...your dealer, along with a high quality product, is part of your insurance package against downtime.
My $0.02 rant, Steve
03-05-2008, 03:05 AM #26
Move-in day at Steve's
SteveinAZ - "We have a Toyoda BM1400 siting outside the shop RIGHT now...driver showed up a day early (Tuesday @ noon), and riggers are scheduled at 07:00 Wednesday, so he's camped out in the yard."
You know that you better have that Camera ready to go in the morning. There are great expectations of almost network quality coverage of the arrival of your BM1400 (what does BM stand for? Big Mutha?). So get your beauty sleep or what ever and let see those pictures.
03-05-2008, 03:17 PM #27
I don't think Mighty sells awea any more. Just Toyoda and Yama Seiki as far as I know.
As far as rapids go, Most machines I see out there are either 787 ipm (20 mpm) or 1181 ipm (30 mpm) Most box way machines are 787 and linear 1181. Toyoda's box way is 1181. But how much cycle time do you save at 1181 vs. 787?
I just returned from a customer where I increases his rapids on 2 40 X 20 size VMC's.
Both were running a 4 part cycle with about a dozen tool changes.
One machine was just over 30 min. / cycle and one just under 30 min.
After the parameter change (from 787 to 1181) he saved 24 sec. on one machine and 19 sec. on the other.
Now I realize every second counts and certain programs will have more time in rapid especially with alot of tool changes but I wouldn,t go out and cut my prices just because I had 50% faster rapids.
03-06-2008, 07:42 AM #28
On the stuff we do it might get you from 50 sec to 40 sec but you might gain that just from being smarter with stuff like doing your tool change closer to the job instead of moving it back close to home just to make sure nothing crashes.
The speed you get out of a machine might have more to do with the speeds and feeds it can put on the job without vibration for example than some higher rapid.
Not easy to grade machines without running them side by side in your shop for a few months.
03-10-2008, 08:49 PM #29
Did you guy's unwrap that BM1400? If so what is it like? Thank you.
03-10-2008, 11:13 PM #30
"BM" in most of Europe would be a....Bowel Movement.
I hope it's not a POS!
03-11-2008, 12:31 AM #31
Dustcanblue: to answer in one word, Big. Upside, it's big. Downside, it's big. Big travels = the spindle is far away from the front, and way up there. Toyoda didn't bring the table all the way to the front of the enclosure when homing the "Y"...good, as you have some space for overhang if needed, bad as the spindle is further away. The service tech from Methods was about 6'4", and it was tall for him. It takes a while to move the table from end to end with the handwheel or jogging...maybe because it is 5' long. 190 gallons of coolant with the standard coolant tank and HP thru spindle coolant...so many pumps back there I lost count! (actually 4 total - standard coolant/chip wash hose [gargen hose], chip pan flush, transfer pump to tsc tank, TSC HP pump). All of the pumps are Grundfos...great units, even the TSC pump is a multi stage centrifugal instead of a positive displacement type which tends to require more maintenance. The machine has a lot of standard features...kinda like buying a Lexus over a Corolla, everything is included.
The Methods service guy is from the Mid-West, where they build BIG stuff, and he was used to working on those machines...like big bridge mills that take up 2,000 sqft, so this one is small...it's all relative.
I have some photos, but would like to downsize them a bit before posting...I used my 8mp Canon, so the files are large.
First cuts should be tomorrow...unfortunately, nothing tough, mostly drilling, spot facing, threading, hole features.
More later. Steve
03-11-2008, 09:26 AM #32
Thank you. Kept us posted have a great day.
03-11-2008, 10:48 AM #33
Cant remember which Toy Horizontal they had at the Ammo show but it was huge... Very impressive. If you need pics sized feel free to send them my way, couple of seconds max.
03-11-2008, 04:11 PM #34
Looking forward to seeing those pics. How big was the door on your warehouse and how did they get the machine in there?
03-13-2008, 02:06 AM #35
03-13-2008, 12:52 PM #36
03-13-2008, 12:56 PM #37
Anybody got a FH1250SX??? Looking hard at those....
03-13-2008, 01:52 PM #38
I have seen one in person. It is an amazing machine. HUGE. And fast for its size. The control is great. Has a 310i with a bunch of good Toyoda software included.
03-13-2008, 02:50 PM #39
Ok...finally took a few minutes to do this...
Moving the Toy in was uneventful (thank goodness)...the riggers and Methods guys were great. The door into the building is exactly 120"W x 113" H...the riggers had the Methods guys remove the tool changer and even the air and wash down hose fittings from the face of the enclosure. They used two forklifts to move it in...one inside, one outside, blocked and chained the base casting to each lift, and slipped it right in. Then onto skates and into its new home. I do not think this was their first rodeo.
Photos show it in its new home...for size reference, the fixtures on the table are 15" high, the temporary step box is 3' x 7' x 1'H, and no, Fanuc did not supply their new minature control with 3" screen.
Nothing fun for the machine to work on...only whimpy stuff right now.
03-13-2008, 03:01 PM #40
Nice The picture doesn't do it justice..no scale. Unless thats you standing on the box, and not a nail sticking up
If the horizontal in vegas was the 630 SX, I would hate (love) to see the 1250SX. The 630 dwarfed the Matsurra 300 that was in the same booth.