Yeah.... running through the options list right now..... Toyoda has definately come around in the last decade and really jumped in the last few years. IMO, the machine integrity was never a question, they just always lacked the bells and whistles. Nice job with the FH series....

Good to hear Steve. I hope this one has baby's all over your shop. They come in pregnant so watch out.

Scott
MMT

I'm a little late to this thread, but Dr.Mori is absolutely paranoid (probably with good
reason) about Chinese theft of trade secrets, so Mori Seiki doesn't have any manufacturing
in China as far as I know. They build the turret built-in motor themselves in Japan. By
the way, the built-in motor turret for live tooling is now an option on the DuraTurn line.
That was announced about two weeks after we had our DuraTurn 2050 delivered...
I assume Scott has a good source for his information on the curvic coupling, but I saw
a lot of turrets being machined from solid at the Mori factory, and its a bit hard for me
to imagine them machining them in Japan, then shipping them to Korea for the curvic
face machining, and then getting them back for assembly.

I'm sure the machines Scott sells are all great machines too, but I was really
impressed by my tours of the Mori factories in Japan. The DuraTurn and DuraVerticals
are indeed produced side-by-side, from scratch, with all the other Mori machines.

-- Ralph

The Dura series machines are built in the same factory as the NMV5000 5 axis vmc

Looking at picking up a Dura 5100 this month. If they are half as good as the ZT series i'll be happy.

As far as I know, no. But they do have a dozen or more sales offices and a few tech centers in China...

http://www.moriseiki.co.jp/english/c...0shanghai.html

... and they did open a manufucturing plant in Thailand....

http://www.allbusiness.com/manufactu.../211147-1.html

Not sure so much about "theft" of trade secrets since reverse engineering is one of China's forte but, Mori has to abide by the same restrictions as any other company that does business or builds in that country regarding technology, power, etc. Many Mori castings (and othe builders) originate from Thailand and such as well.... although many of the casting houses are Japanese owned houses operating there....

It's a small world guys and trade is going to happen. "Low cost region" manufacturing has always been prevelant, even in our own country. Tough to get away from....

Nice pics, Steve. You should get someone to pose next to it for size perspective. Preferably someone of the female variety but anyone will do.

HI SteveinAZ

Are we making chip yet? How is it for rigidity, the good ,the bad. Curious that's all. Thank you.

Robert

Hello gents, I’m getting very familiar with this product and here are the facts.

The following are facts taken literature.

In Toyoda brochure:

Toyoda’s AF Series and BM Series machines are manufactured to Toyoda specifications by Awea Mechatronic Company. Awea is ISO
9001 and ISO 14001 certified and practices VDI/DGQ 3441 (Europe) quality measurement standards.

Here are the outstanding differences between Toyoda and Awea for the same model Ex: BM1600

- Table size & travels are the same.
- Table load Toyoda 4400 lbs --- Awea 3300 lbs
- Rapids Toyoda 945 IPM --- Awea 472 IPM
- Cutting Feed rate are the same
- Positioning accuracy is the same
- Repeatability is the same
- Standard Spindle power Toyoda 30HP --- Awea 20HP
- Standard Magazine size Toyoda 30 tools --- Awea 16 tools
- Total weight Toyoda 36,300 lbs --- Awea 34,100 lbs
- 4th axis prep Toyoda standard --- Awea optional
- Control is the same (Fanuc 18i-MB)
- Network connection Toyoda standard Awea optional

Not documented differences:

- Toyoda has a reversed "Y" shaped column to improve rigidity. The smallest section of the column is 4 feet X 4 feet. Awea has the same column size from top to bottom. (This might be the reason why they have different weights)

- High quality pumps (Grundfos)
- Ball screws made in Japan
- Hydraulic head counter balance to eliminate head vibration.
- High pressure 300 PSI coolant tank with dual filter and low pressure alarm.

High pressure coolant thru and chip conveyor are part of the standard package for Toyoda.

I may forget cosmetic details but this wraps up the main differences.

Subjective appreciation:

I've seen two BM1600 side by side at Heroux Devtek (major aeronautic supplier) in Scarborough, Ontario. They are very impressive machine. They don't look cheap if you compare them to the Makino's, Mori's and Matsuura's that are sitting beside. Quality of built is there and Toyoda did and impressive spreadsheet of modification to bring a Taiwanese made machine to a higher level.

Important note, Awea is one of the few machine tool manufacturers that have German strict quality standard certification. I think the foundation is solid and Toyoda took the benefit of it to bring a competitive machine at a decent price.

Overall, Toyoda BM machine are heavier, powerful, faster and handle more weight while keeping the same accuracies compared to Awea. Add to that and outstanding standard list of features

We have a winner here in the heavy league.

Charles

Hi Charles,

I am the Wisconsin Rep for Yama Seiki (Awea). I assume you are a Toyoda rep in Canada. I am limited to Toyoda’s website for their specs but I do have access to ours.

Here are the outstanding differences between Toyoda and Yama Seiki for the same model Ex: BM1600

- Table size & travels are the same.
- Table load Toyoda 4400 lbs ---Yama Seiki 3300 lbs (old specs., “pre-Toyoda", were 4400. I’m not sure why we were de-rated
- Rapids Toyoda 945 IPM X&Y 709 Z --- Yama Seiki 591 X&Y 472 IPM Z ( I noticed you used the X&Y on Toyoda to compare against Z on Awea. Perhaps an over sight)
- Cutting Feed rate are the same
- Positioning accuracy is the same
- Repeatability is the same
- Standard Spindle power Toyoda 25/30HP --- Yama Seiki 20/25HP ( Again, I noticed you used Toyoda’s 30 min rating compared to Awea’s cont. rating. Salesmanship?)
- Standard Magazine size Toyoda 30 tools --- Yama Seiki 30 tools
- Total weight Toyoda 36,300 lbs --- Yama Seiki 36,300 lbs
- 4th axis prep Toyoda standard ---Yama Seiki optional
- Control is the same (Fanuc 18i-MB) Yama Seiki – 512 MB data server, AICC 10.4” color
- Network connection Toyoda standard Yama Seiki - standard

Not documented differences:

- Toyoda has a reversed "Y" shaped column to improve rigidity. The smallest section of the column is 4 feet X 4 feet. Awea has the same column size from top to bottom. (This might be the reason why they have different weights) Can’t speak on column as I haven’t seen Toyodas. Pictures look similar

- High quality pumps (Grundfos) Yama Seiki - Grundfos
- Ball screws made in Japan. Yama Seiki – Not sure, I would think they would get all there screws from the same vendor to enjoy quantity discounts
- Hydraulic head counter balance to eliminate head vibration. Yama Seiki - mechanical
- High pressure 300 PSI coolant tank with dual filter and low pressure alarm.
Yama Seiki - 1000PSI CTS prep standard ( coupling, hoses, logic etc.) Customer may purchase our 300 PSI coolant tank with dual filter and low pressure alarm, or opt for an aftermarket system and not have a 300 PSI system laying around their shop. Chip conveyor standard as is wash down etc.

High pressure coolant thru and chip conveyor are part of the standard package for Toyoda.


Again, both great machines. Very capable and very dependable. I just wanted to clear up some of the specs. as I see them.

Ken

Ken,

When I wrote that message, I wasn't knowing the existence of Yama Seiki. You are right, I'm from Canada and we haven't seen the presence of this product yet.

My spec's were written around a new brochure of Awea that one of my customers had and he was nice enough to share it to me. The differences were obvious but as I mention in my previous post, Awea has a nice & solid base and suppliers can add their topping & own components.

To answer your comments:

- Rapids Toyoda 945 IPM X&Y 709 Z --- Yama Seiki 591 X&Y 472 IPM Z ( I noticed you used the X&Y on Toyoda to compare against Z on Awea. Perhaps an over sight)

Yes, you are right that's my mistake but still lower...


- Standard Spindle power Toyoda 25/30HP --- Yama Seiki 20/25HP ( Again, I noticed you used Toyoda’s 30 min rating compared to Awea’s cont. rating. Salesmanship?)

What I have here from Awea is 15/20HP 6000 RPM?



Again, they are comparable machines with different features set.

The ones I've seen (BM1600) were moving chips like a hot knife in butter but lets see from SteveinAZ howe it goes now.

Cheers,

Charles

Charles,

Please accept my apologies. A quick visit to Awea’s website shows the exact specs. you mentioned. (I should have gone there before shooting my mouth off). I assumed the American Yama Seiki’s were the same as Awea VMC’s. (We don’t have Awea badged VMC’s here.)

Sorry,
Ken

Ken,

You're all forgiven!

Charles

So what is what is the price difference between the Yama Seiki and the Toyoda? (I assume the Awea isn't sold under that name in the US.)

They both sound like first rate machines...