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Thread: who had the new toyoda bm-1600?
07-31-2008, 08:42 AM #1
who had the new toyoda bm-1600?
How do you like it by now? I recall an issue with a rusted z column.... did that get taken care of? In looking at equipment out there and my history with my toyoda HMC's... I am gonna be browsing the tyoda's at this year's IMTS show. I have a Cincinnati Sabre 1500 I'd like to replace with a BM-1600, have to see how the money rolls.
07-31-2008, 07:41 PM #2
It would be me...sort of - BM-1400.
Yep, rusty Z ways found upon installation...go back a while and you can read the details...here the Reader's Digest version. Methods Machine service tech installing the machine brings it up, pow-wow the next morning with the Methods guys, they assure me all will be fine, Methods and Toyoda step up and and send in another machine. A few days in swap out, reload programs, set vises and toys and off we go. First Class guys - both parties.
How's it working...well, really good. Unfortunately for you, we don't do a ton of tough milling, but what it has done is pretty darn good. Toughest cut so far has been a 4" 90 degree Sandvik face mill, 2.50" radial, 0.250" axial cut @ 50"/min in 75ksi steel...purrs right along at about 85% spindle load. It has no problem breaking 1/2" carbide end mills either...no bangs or clanks, just a little "click", and the cut gets real quiet. Not the fastest thing out there by any means, but it will fill the huge chip pan area with big, heavy steel chips in a hurry...the chip container they give you is a joke, you can fill it in about 15 minutes if your getting busy, but they did supply one - have your scrap guy bring you 4'x6' totes.
One bad thing about them is the literature...not real sure what all is included in the purchase. You will really need to work over your dealer to understand what you are getting. Don't get me wrong, it's really the opposite of what I'm sounding like, there are a lot of options that are included, but not really mentioned or may be stated as options, but come on the machine as a "standard". Methods did this on the tool changers...all of the BM1400's & BM1600's were ordered with 40 tool changers. When I compared machines, by the time you option up everything equal, the prices are really close between the builders (with exception of the likes of Mori, Makino, Okuma, Matsuura, etc).
VMCMan-Scott - correct me if I'm wrong, as I may have misunderstood.
Here's the best part, as this had to be coming to a head when our machine was in the middle of it all from a timing issue (maybe I am part of the change???). My Methods sales guy stops by yesterday...I said I noticed the Toy VMCs look different on their web site, well, apparently Toyoda wanted more control out of the Awea plant they had contracted to build them. Awea says no, they part ways, Toyoda goes down the road a few miles, buys into another MTB, and doesn't miss a beat...same Toyoda spindle, same castings, same designs, interchangable parts, etc. Delivery might be out just a bit though on new machines. I believe the largest machine is now the FV1565 with 1500mm X travel. I would question a few of the specs...Z travel and spindle nose to table, max tool length, optional tool changers (40 tool not available?), Cat 40 in the big machines ...quite a few differences, but then again, it is written in Jinglish. I think they also lost the linear way machines, the AF series I believe.
07-31-2008, 07:59 PM #3
Steve you did indeed have a huge part in the firing of Awea. Now Toyoda owns the company over in Taiwan.
08-01-2008, 08:40 AM #4
The sabre 1500 I'd like to retire has been a decent machine, I bought it used... and I LIKE a vertical thats 1500MM X, 750 MM Y, 750MM Z travel. I need to look at the headroom of the changer too. The Sabre 1500 lets me stand up a 24" tall block and still change tools. I know I have done some work just bcause a Haas VF6 could not handle the Z height. I think i'd really like a 50 taper next time, and a heavy box way 50 taper VMC would kick butt in some of the work I have subjected the 40 taper linear way cinci to. As I recall the BM-1600 was nearly identical z heights to the Sabre,,, but its on the drool list for IMTS.
08-01-2008, 09:52 AM #5
The tool clamping is hydraulic rather than Belleville washers. Seems to work. Does anybody else use this method?
There have been a few problems, mostly related to connections or sensors coming loose. The repair log only has 9 entries. The most serious repairs were replacing thrust bearings on X axis (which were noisy from the get go, we thought it was a noisy way cover), and replacing cam rollers in tool magazine drive (greasable, but no access to or knowledge of fittings).
Vigor Machine, the US rep., has been easy to deal with.
08-01-2008, 11:37 AM #6
Being involved with Awea for the last 7 years, I heard a different story on the break up. One thing that can be agreed upon was that it was not pleasant. The BM 1600 is now (and was) the Yama Seiki VMB 1600 Imported in CA. by Yama Seiki USA.
Toyoda did invest in a company in Taiwan but not Awea. As far as the 2 machines being the same and interchangable I would highly doubt that. Unfortunatly you can't believe everything a sales person tells you. You don't have to believe me either, but i'm a service guy.
08-05-2008, 01:36 AM #7
Willie, not sure of the Z height and tool changes, but SOP is the send the table home before a tool change. I usually do a block delete (the tool change macro has the "/" so the block delete works there), and miss the extra 75"+ of table movement to send it home and then back to where it needs to be.
We ran a job a couple of weeks ago that the machine was really kind of spec'd for...steel block 12" high off the table, and a 1" x 8D drill in the que. The drill in the tool holder runs right at 13.7" from gage to tip, so it barely fits the machines 13.8" max tool length. First tool change was really exciting, as I forgot the block delete was on, watching that drill swing down, and whip around to the spindle made something happen within...don't know if it was my heart stopping or the vacuum effect of the instant pucker factor being applied, but fortunately everything did clear! The math may not seem to add up, but remember the tool has to drop about 5" out of the spindle too.
If I were you, I think I would write a very specific Purchase Order when you do this...it seems as if the MTBs cannot translate, or change specs, or "upgrade", or mainstreams (aka cheapens) the machines on a constant basis. Write your specs down of what you want before IMTS, make a few copies and peruse the booths and question everything. Make your notes on which ones will fit your needs, and then you can cut a deal. Just remember that you are going to need good dealer support (well, hopefully never, but it's a machine, and they break down, it's a fact of life).
Would I buy another one, yes. Was it cheap, no. Was it a good value, yes. I think for us it is the right machine for the work we do, it's the right fit. It's not super fast, it won't spit out little aluminum parts out day in and day out super fast (not with a 6k spindle), but that's not our work, if it were, we would have a little Makino or Robodrill or ??? The other factor that helped the package for us is Methods Machine...good, long standing dealer with a huge install base here. I think Ellison (Haas and Mori, et.al.) is the only other dealer close in size, (which gives you depth and breadth-quite a few two and three man shows here).
08-05-2008, 11:50 AM #8
Talking about 60"X, anybody know what those Nexus700's are going for yet?
08-05-2008, 08:04 PM #9
SND, I did ask...it was quite a bit more than the Toyoda, but I do not recall the exact number. Has to be hell of a machine too. The VTC200 machine was pretty close to the Toyoda...has 65" X but only about 20" Y and Z, but I recall a VTC300 that bumped the Y & Z - did hear the VTC's are not really robust (from an ex-Mazak service guy) but of course have to take that with caution...anyone have one that can comment?
08-05-2008, 10:37 PM #10
The BM1600 was replaced by the FV1680 not yet on the http://www.toyodausa.com
Basic Machine Specs Are:
35Hp. 40 tools. CAT50.
Table Size: Length x Width 1,750 mm x 800 mm (68.9" x 31.5")
Maximum Load on Table 1,800 kg (3,310 lb)
X Axis Travel 1,600 mm (63")
Y Axis Travel 800 mm (31.5")
Z Axis Travel 800 mm (31.5")
08-06-2008, 07:30 PM #11
Well Wille, there you go...800mm travel in Z and if they kept the same spindle to table, it should be a 200mm (7.9") - 1,000mm (39.4")...should be plenty enough as long as your tool(s) are not too long.
Hope you have the headroom through the doorway and in the shop.
Let us know how it shakes out after IMTS, or if you do anything before that.
08-08-2008, 09:44 AM #12
Turns out there is a local company that sells Yama Seiki.... manufactured by Awea. They have the BM-1600 still. I have a price and a brochure, and there are a few fairly close by to go have a look at. I have to say that I like what I see so far.... for giggles I ran the online pricer on a VF6/ 50 taper Haas... list price of the Haas was within 10% of list price on the Yama Seiki. I want to look into the sharp's a bit more... many people here like their small sharp's, don't know if anyone has a large one. I have not looked at Mazak...might peruse their site...any other quality big verticals?
08-08-2008, 03:16 PM #13
So for someone who does not follow 50 Taper machines much.
How does a BM1600 compare to an old time Mori MV65B/50? I ran one i a previous life and man what fond memories. All balls and no BS.
08-08-2008, 03:22 PM #14
The MV65/ 50 taper is 60 x 26 x 26...the Yama is 63 x 31.5 x 31.5... have to find more on the mori, the online specs are not very complete.
08-09-2008, 03:41 PM #15
We've got a new MV-653 with a 2-pallet changer coming in on the 19th. I'll report back in the coming weeks.
We ended up getting a 40 taper, 12k big plus spindle. We needed the high RPM. The 50 taper at 10k was available but at a $50k premium. We decided to pass on that.
As for comparing it to the Toyoda... no idea. Haven't even seen my Mori yet and have never used a Toyoda. All I can tell you is that there is a pretty significant cost premium with the Mori. If you need more than 26" Y-axis capacity, they make the VS8000 gantry mill which is even more $.
08-09-2008, 04:52 PM #16
08-09-2008, 05:01 PM #17
Looks like the FJV has just 23" Z according to the mazak website.
08-09-2008, 05:07 PM #18
08-26-2008, 12:01 AM #19
Wille, did you find a machine yet? I just saw this from one of the used dealer spam emails, looks like a nice machine:
Control Fanuc 18iMB
Table Size 70.8" x 31.5"
Travels 63" x 31.5" x 31.5"
Spindle Speed 6000 RPM
Main Motor 20 HP
Number of Tools 24 ATC
Thru Spindle Coolant
08-26-2008, 01:19 AM #20
Here are some teaser pics of our Mori MV which recently shipped with the machine separate from the enclosure, perhaps due to shipping complications. The techs have been at it for 3 days. Probably another 2-3 to go. The ground is currently littered with sheet metal components wrapped in foam.