Looking thru my cache of transformers this week ran across a late model Square D Sorgel 3 phase cabinet type transformer that is 20 kva, HV 460 and LV 460Y/266. What was this for... running 266 volt lights from 460 source ? And if so, is it good for anything else ?
Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
Largest Manufacturing Technology Community on the Web
Stay Connected:
460Y/266 volt transformer....what is it for ?
- Thread starter Milacron
- Start date
- Replies 12
- Views 8,306
European 400 (380) V 50Hz motors running perfect on 480 (460) 60Hz
This will indicate suitable voltage at 60 Hz for a 230 (220) V motor to be: 266 (277) V
dsk
Whaaaa ?? 50 Hz vs 60 Hz only changes motor speeds...nothing to do with voltage.
peterh5322
Diamond
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2002
- Location
- Monterey Bay, California
"50 Hz vs 60 Hz only changes motor speeds...nothing to do with voltage"
Some electromagnetic devices have different voltage ratings for 50 Hz and for 60 Hz.
The 60 Hz voltage rating is higher than the 50 Hz voltage rating.
Some electromagnetic devices have different voltage ratings for 50 Hz and for 60 Hz.
The 60 Hz voltage rating is higher than the 50 Hz voltage rating.
All the motors we use at my job (mainly Bevi motors) have the same amp rating, but incrased speed and wattage at 60 hz and 480V as at 400V at 50 Hz. This indicates an practice who may say what the transformer mentioned above may be designed for.
dsk
dsk
I know this is dragging up an old topic
But, since I am working with almost the same unit
(Cat # 58190 HV-415, LV-415/240) and uncovered this topic while deep in a search of the forum, I thought to share findings with any who may be interested.
From the information gathered on the unit in hand, The HIGH side is Delta wound with +/- 10% taps.(6) The LOW side is Wye wound 1:1.(or so)
The "/240" designates the Wye (star) configuration "any leg to neutral" voltage.
Must be an "export" unit. A great unit for bringing in utility Delta and having available single and three phase at both low and high voltage.
Sooo..Just a little more information added into the pot.
Though it is rather like pushing a chain up hill, I'm trying to "Adjust" this 3ph unit to step up 240 V single phase to something over 380 V
The shop is a bit cold tonight, but I think I'm on to something.
I should have read the label a bit closer and just found a proper 2:1 transformer. But the price was right and I'm picking up some lessons that will last a lifetime ;-) Life should be so easy.....
Regards
CalG
But, since I am working with almost the same unit
(Cat # 58190 HV-415, LV-415/240) and uncovered this topic while deep in a search of the forum, I thought to share findings with any who may be interested.
From the information gathered on the unit in hand, The HIGH side is Delta wound with +/- 10% taps.(6) The LOW side is Wye wound 1:1.(or so)
The "/240" designates the Wye (star) configuration "any leg to neutral" voltage.
Must be an "export" unit. A great unit for bringing in utility Delta and having available single and three phase at both low and high voltage.
Sooo..Just a little more information added into the pot.
Though it is rather like pushing a chain up hill, I'm trying to "Adjust" this 3ph unit to step up 240 V single phase to something over 380 V
The shop is a bit cold tonight, but I think I'm on to something.
I should have read the label a bit closer and just found a proper 2:1 transformer. But the price was right and I'm picking up some lessons that will last a lifetime ;-) Life should be so easy.....
Regards
CalG
As a general rule, the voltage and frequency ARE related, directly.
This is teh "volts per Hz" relationship. Also known as "volt-seconds".
A given inductance, a motor winding, or a transformer winding, can "support" voltage based on the inductance, and the time the voltage is applied. Too long, and the resulting idle current is too large, saturating the core.
With regard to 50 and 60 hz, the longer 50Hz 'cycle" requires more inductance to "support" the same voltage as at 60Hz.
So, as a VFD reduces frequency, it also must reduce voltage. And if you have a transformer correct for 480V 60 Hz, at 5/6 frequency, it can support only 5/6 voltage, or 400V. 460V >> 380V, etc.
The reverse also holds, if moving to 60 Hz, the winding can support 6/5 voltage.
As a practical matter, if you have a 1HP motor, and you would like it to be 2HP, you can, if the insulation and construction can take it, operate that motor as 2HP at double frequency. 1HP at 60 hz 240V, 2 HP at 120Hz and 480V. Same current either way, so double power at double voltage.
240/60 = 4 V/Hz and 480 /120 also = 4 V / Hz.
This is teh "volts per Hz" relationship. Also known as "volt-seconds".
A given inductance, a motor winding, or a transformer winding, can "support" voltage based on the inductance, and the time the voltage is applied. Too long, and the resulting idle current is too large, saturating the core.
With regard to 50 and 60 hz, the longer 50Hz 'cycle" requires more inductance to "support" the same voltage as at 60Hz.
So, as a VFD reduces frequency, it also must reduce voltage. And if you have a transformer correct for 480V 60 Hz, at 5/6 frequency, it can support only 5/6 voltage, or 400V. 460V >> 380V, etc.
The reverse also holds, if moving to 60 Hz, the winding can support 6/5 voltage.
As a practical matter, if you have a 1HP motor, and you would like it to be 2HP, you can, if the insulation and construction can take it, operate that motor as 2HP at double frequency. 1HP at 60 hz 240V, 2 HP at 120Hz and 480V. Same current either way, so double power at double voltage.
240/60 = 4 V/Hz and 480 /120 also = 4 V / Hz.
S
SmithSolar
Guest
viper
Titanium
- Joined
- May 18, 2007
- Location
- nowhereville
a 460/266 transformer will be the same as a 480/277. The 277 class is a common voltage for industrial and commercial single phase lighting. I am considering that myself just to save an assload on copper wire...
As Peter stated above, 50hz and 60hz can have different power ratings. The slower the oscillation, the less it will be rated for.
As Peter stated above, 50hz and 60hz can have different power ratings. The slower the oscillation, the less it will be rated for.
The Energy Rebel
Hot Rolled
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2009
- Location
- Western NC, USA
That is correct.
I had to install a vertical lathe in Jax a few years back.
It was Belgian (instructions in French) and an electrician had to come in and wire it for 277v off of 480v.
There is a lot about European wiring that is different.
Jraef
Titanium
- Joined
- Aug 10, 2004
- Location
- San Francisco Bay Area
Basically this transformer is just a 1:1 Delta - Wye transformer that will accept 3 phase 3 wire (Delta) from a source that has no Neutral and create an identical 3 phase 4 wire (Wye) circuit for loads that must use the neutral, i.e. lighting and mainframes as mentioned above. The only reason it says "460V" instead of 480V is because as mentioned above, IBM (Big Blue) back in the day had to deal with not knowing if a system would be installed where the line voltage was 440V or 480V. So they compromised by calling the line requirements 460V +- 10%, which protected them from installation problems when the line was 480V +10% or 440V - 10%. Once the installation instructions said it, people like Sorgel (Sq. D.) had to make transformers with nameplates that matched the IBM engineers instructions because people were so afraid of Computers that they dared not challenge anything.
I did some of my apprenticeship on a project for IBM in San Jose in the late 70s...
weckelman
Plastic
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2007
- Location
- Lawrence, KS
DC drives, too.
On the first generation CNCs we had machines that used transformers wired delta primary and Y secondary as isolation to keep out "noise". That and using DC drives for the spindle and servos, 266-277 was used to supply 240 volt dc, just as 120 is used for 90 volt and 240 is used for 180 volt motors. We saved one of the transformers for lighting use and it is rated 21.8 kva.
On the first generation CNCs we had machines that used transformers wired delta primary and Y secondary as isolation to keep out "noise". That and using DC drives for the spindle and servos, 266-277 was used to supply 240 volt dc, just as 120 is used for 90 volt and 240 is used for 180 volt motors. We saved one of the transformers for lighting use and it is rated 21.8 kva.
