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Could someone possibly explain how an absolute position resolver work internally?

huleo

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Feb 12, 2014
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We are setting up a large gantry machine and realized it uses absolute position resolvers that require NO power to maintain position. That was proved when the machine was plugged in after being unplugged for 5YRS!!

The resolver appears to be a very small and standard looking device by Stegmann.


The axis ballscrews were manually walked around during assembly and the control does not have any maint batteries in it.

Really want to understand more.
 
Thanks. I am familiar with the differences in basic design. But I cannot find a thing on unpowered absolute resolvers.

Basically I can completely unplug one of these encoders right at the encoder, manually move it, plug it back in, and the control knows the new position!
 
Thanks. I am familiar with the differences in basic design. But I cannot find a thing on unpowered absolute resolvers.

Basically I can completely unplug one of these encoders right at the encoder, manually move it, plug it back in, and the control knows the new position!

perhaps there is a simple epicyclic gear within the resolver that allows a large dynamic range. An investigation of the device by maker and model would reveal the mechanism.
 
try this!
Absolute Encoders versus Incremental Encoders

Dig in!

exerpt


The Hall-Effect based sensor system is the singleturn stage of the absolute encoders. However, it does not enable the encoder to count revolutions if the external power supply is disconnected. POSITAL solves this problem by means of an energy harvesting system based on the WiegandEffect which requires no batteries or gears. Using batteries brings about a lot of disadvantages, since they have a limited lifespan, a considerable weight, and contain harmful substances. Gear units bring weaknesses of their own being large, complex, costly and vulnerable to shock and vibration. Regardless of the rotational speed, even at nearzero, the energy harvesting system generates short, powerful voltage pulses which supply sufficient power to the counting electronics in absolute encoders. Thus, the revolution counter is independent of any external power supply. This principle, which has proven itself since 2005, enables maintenance-free reliable measurement of absolute positions even in demanding environments for years to come.
 
Sorry, I missed that little bit there. This is a resolver from about 1999 and I cannot find this technology shown in resolvers but it may exist. I will have to dig more into it. Technically I believe the actual position of the resolver would always be known but without counting, it would not be able to know actual position so it must have some sort of counting device built in.
 
Gosh

Keep us guessing

Who is the maker of the device ? A model number would be so useful.

Such a mystery...
 
the word resolver is usually regulated to the world of magnetics, such a system would have forgotten its position.

but even in 1999 it would not have been out of the ordinary to build a hall effect closed loop positioning system that can remember where it is. it might have a battery, it might have n rings of magnetic that provide absolute positioning via gray code and the minimal number of hall effect sensors. in those days even a hard drive platter and read heads could be used to split one degree into a billion pieces, but you would have to keep the rpm above about 1000..

24 bits per revolution is no longer out of the attainable. splitting 1 degree into 46600 pieces..


more likely your system has a gray code optical encoder and you got lucky, it hasn't moved more than one revolution since it was unplugged.
 
Short and not-absolutely-correct explanation : Resolvers are analog, there are no counters inside. They use the difference between two sine waves to deliver a difference signal which is converted by analog-to-digital circuitry to deliver a number. In most cases they do need "homing" to synchronize their position with machine zero but in at least one case that I know of, the resolver is geared to make one turn for the entire travel of the table. Therefore it can never lose position.

but even in 1999 it would not have been out of the ordinary to build a hall effect closed loop positioning system that can remember where it is ...
Even in 1966 with resolvers Cincinnati machines never lost position and didn't have batteries or hall-effect sensors or encoders or any of that shit.

24 bits per revolution is no longer out of the attainable. splitting 1 degree into 46600 pieces..
Resolvers split a degree into an infinite number of pieces. Analog is actually pretty cool.
 
but in at least one case that I know of, the resolver is geared to make one turn for the entire travel of the table. Therefore it can never lose position.


Even in 1964 with resolvers Cincinnati machines never lost position and didn't have batteries or hall-effect sensors or encoders or any of that shit. Analog is actually pretty cool.

at best they might be accurate to one part in 10,000 or .03 degrees for an individual resolver. i had fun with that stuff in the usmc on some ancient ea-6b antenna positioning systems.

anyhow if you want better than part in 10,000 you need another syncro geared at say a 10:1 ratio to the first one. the first one gives you the absolute position, the second one gets you the accuracy you need. the split gears, spring preloaded.. yes eventually those gears wear out! takes a long time though...

a 2024 line encoder is better than a synchro any day, and it dosen't really cost anything to add the 1024,512,256,128,64,32,16,8,4,2 rings to the same etch, to get an absolute encoder.

and that's only 13 bits, you could manually scribe those lines in with dividing head on a 1 foot diameter wheel.. adding the next 10 bits is the challenge.


RESOLUTE is a true absolute, fine pitch optical encoder system that has excellent dirt immunity, and an impressive specification that breaks new ground in position feedback. It is the world's first absolute encoder capable of 32-bit resolution at 36 000 rev/min.

try that with a geared resolver. lol!
 
As I mentioned in the original post, the brand is Stegmann, but I don't have a model right now. I can assure you this is a precision machine tool so it has to have fine resolution, there are no homing, proxy, or any other means of homing. It has to be hard set in the parameters when adjusted.

I know these are resolvers, not encoders. says resolver on it and the mfgr indicates the same. They say it will always know its position. I guess I just want to understand how, and the OEM is out of business or I would just call them! Its just interesting.
 
well, i have less information to go on than you do but i believe you have a grey code optical encoder in the sytem. yes, it knows its position absolutely.

it may not know its position if you power it off and rotate the screw more than 1 turn. either this hasn't happened, or it has some method of counting turns. such a system of counting turns could be passive or active.
 
Gray code differs from the more common encoders by having a scale that only changes one segment at a time. A binary count changing from 3 to 4 changes three bits, i.e, 0II for 3 and I00 for 4. If the bits do not change at the exact same time, it will momentarily output a different number. With Gray code, even if the transitions are not evenly spaced, it will not lose count. A given count will only be displayed at one point on the disk. The input shaft can be geared to a turns counting ring because you are not depending on the gears to have no backlash. They still can't have much, but do not have to be perfect.

Gray code - Wikipedia

Bill
 
Ignoring analog vs digital for the moment, you can imagine relative encoders to have a simple series of regularly spaced tick marks, while absolute encoders have labeled marks like a rule. Whenever the read head passes a labeled tick, the readout can reset itself to the labeled position. It is not necessary for every mark to be labeled. I have a DRO system with just one labeled tick at mid-scale, to serve as a positive scale zero reading. It is more common to have labeled ticks at small distances like a few millimeters. And it is certainly possible for every tick to be labeled, using something like the Gray encoding.

A single series of ticks is simple enough, but to label ticks requires multiple parallel series of marks. Both the scale and the read head must be designed to support the multiple parallel series. And the longer the scale is (actually, the more labeled ticks there are) the more parallel series are required to encode a label.

As has already been mentioned, there are analog resolver systems that do not have actual discrete marks. However, for the purpose of understanding relative vs absolute systems, you can ignore that.
 
huleo, is this a PAR gantry? We have seen PAR Systems with dual resolver feedback that track position on an absolute basis without power applied. But Stegmann are known more for Hyperface encoders which do indeed acccomplish the same thing, but are encoders not resolvers. Generally you can move them up to 4096 revolutions before they roll over and get "lost".

People sometimes see the sin/cos signals from a hyperface encoder and assume that hey are dealing with a resolver, but this isn't the case. You say the feedback device is labeled "resolver" . . . if it is a multi-turn unit, then if truly a resolver, it is a dual channel geared unit which is common especially for mission critical applications (nuclear fuel rod placement kind of stuff).
 








 
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