Delta or Schneider VFD - does it matter?

Hi

I'm trying to decide between a Schneider and a Delta VFD for my lathe. Both seem to have what I need as far as specs and are the only two brands available here.

The only spec difference that might be relevant is carrier frequency of max 15kHz on the Delta vs. 16kHz on the Schneider. I understand it's best to use the lowest carrier frequency that is not too loud. I checked and with the volume pretty high, I could notice a difference between 15kHZz and 16kHz, with the latter being less audible. But it's best not to use such high carrier frequency it's a moot point.

Is there a reason to get a Delta or a Schneider or both should be fine and it doesn't really matter?

Separately from that, the Schneider is in stock but somewhat annoying service from the dealer. The Delta was supposed to be in stock a week ago, but still waiting. The dealer is much nicer, but also a long drive away (the Schneider is in my city). So it's mostly a matter of whether it's worth waiting for the Delta.

Thanks

clarnibass said:

Is there a reason to get a Delta or a Schneider or both should be fine and it doesn't really matter?

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Both firms make more than one line of VFD. Helpful if the community knew which models you were comparing.

I have an older Schneider Altivar 71, and it is a nicely made bit of work, and out of their then Indohooliga factory at that.

ISTR that has moved to China, but even so, they have factories all over the globe and own dozens of brands, including several legacy competitors to each other in the USA, now under common ownership.

Delta, I know very little about, nor have any compelling need to learn.

I guess that is a 'vote', of sorts....



Bill

Thanks.

Models are Schneider ATV320U112MC and Delta VFD015E21A. I'm not sure where either is made, but AFAIK Schneider is a French company and it's probably made in Indonesia, the Delta is a Taiwanese company made either in China or Taiwan (couldn't find it yet). Both are supposedly reputable brands.

The only reason the Schneider is 1.1kW (1.5HP) and the Delta is 1.5kW (2HP) is because it's the "smallest" model from either that fits the motor (Delta's one step lower is 0.75kW which is too low).

I guess one question is whether the 16kHz vs. 15kHz matters? I'm no twelve year old with peak hearing range, but I could notice the difference, which doesn't matter if it's bad to use such a high carrier frequency anyway?

I'm leaning towards the Schneider because it's in my city and in stock, in spite of the dealers which just plain suck...

clarnibass said:

Thanks.

Models are Schneider ATV320U112MC and Delta VFD015E21A. I'm not sure where either is made, but AFAIK Schneider is a French company and it's probably made in Indonesia, the Delta is a Taiwanese company made either in China or Taiwan (couldn't find it yet). Both are supposedly reputable brands.

The only reason the Schneider is 1.1kW (1.5HP) and the Delta is 1.5kW (2HP) is because it's the "smallest" model from either that fits the motor (Delta's one step lower is 0.75kW which is too low).

I guess one question is whether the 16kHz vs. 15kHz matters? I'm no twelve year old with peak hearing range, but I could notice the difference, which doesn't matter if it's bad to use such a high carrier frequency anyway?

I'm leaning towards the Schneider because it's in my city and in stock, in spite of the dealers which just plain suck...

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Altivars are good drives, but seldom winners on price. I like the 71 series better than the 32, but the biggest challenge I see here is that your load is so darned tiny.

Has your budget admitted of no OTHER choices but these two? Major-maker VFD are a reasonably trustworthy commodity, long since.

I'd suggest Lenze for such small loads, and not a huge risk if you order online from them or shop the likes of Galco, Drives Warehouse, Wolf Automation, or several others among what we call 'the usual suspects'. What value-add was the local dealer bringing to the table? Israel is not Antarctica as to shipping - I buy from there into Virginia.

1.5 KW VFD are not worth a lot more worry - nor spend - than a decent pair of shoes.
When they no longer serve your needs, they get replaced. Drama optional.

Bill

The carrier frequency difference it irrelevant, and yes, you should not use it if you can avoid it. Increasing the carrier frequency lowers the audible noise, but increases the heat in the drive by quite a bit, and increases the phenomenon called "standing wave" generation, which can cause your windings to fail, as well as increasing the common mode noise, which can make your bearings fail. These issues can be overcome, but at considerable expense, which when compared to a little noise doesn't make sense.

Delta is OK, probably at par with that low-end Schneider drive. I don't really like either one, but you say those are your only choices. So with that, I'd say go with the Schneider, if only for the fact that they are close by. You may be replacing it more often than you want to...

Thank you!

It's not a budget issue. I found some other VFDs here but dismissed them for various reasons (one was a cheap no-name, one without some features that I wanted ,etc.). I know it's often a non-issue, but I'm not going to buy from abroad because of the warranty. In the rare case I would have to return it, shipping back and forth is a hassle, plus a lot of time, plus maybe expensive if they don't cover it. I don't have a problem with shipping in general, most of the tools and supplies for my work is from abroad.

Also, for some reason, prices are higher in the USA. About the same price (sometimes more) in the US, even though local price includes VAT. Plus about $50 shipping and maybe 35% tax on the total when it arrives. Price could end up almost double ordering from abroad, and take a couple of weeks at least.

There is a Lenze distributor here, but they are very far. I could talk with them but was also a bit confused by the many different models and tired of dealing with yet another store so didn't bother... I think the equivalent model is the SMVector, either NEMA 1 IP31 or NEMA 4X IP65 (is that just a difference in the case?)?
Inverter Drives SMV IP31 - Lenze in Germany. As easy as that.
Inverter Drives SMV IP65 - Lenze in Germany. As easy as that.

Re shoes... I only wear sports shoes and last time they cost me $60... but I'm extremely picky and take forever to find shoes I really like, then wear them for many years until they are unwrearable... so I guess it's a very good comparison and I'm trying to do the same with this VFD

Jraef said:

Delta is OK, probably at par with that low-end Schneider drive. I don't really like either one, but you say those are your only choices. So with that, I'd say go with the Schneider, if only for the fact that they are close by. You may be replacing it more often than you want to...

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Hmm... that model number of the Schneider is the one they gave me based on the previous VFD which was also a Schneider. It's from 20 years ago and the previous owner just kept using it because they didn't know or care about the problems, but I don't know when the problems started.

I can check any model Schneider, as long as it's in stock in the country.
There is also Mitsubishi which I dismissed for some reasons too.
The other is the Lenze mentioned, is it better? If it is worth getting instead of the others I'll make the effort (if it's in stock).

Thanks

clarnibass said:

Hmm... that model number of the Schneider is the one they gave me based on the previous VFD which was also a Schneider. It's from 20 years ago and the previous owner just kept using it because they didn't know or care about the problems, but I don't know when the problems started.

I can check any model Schneider, as long as it's in stock in the country.
There is also Mitsubishi which I dismissed for some reasons too.
The other is the Lenze mentioned, is it better? If it is worth getting instead of the others I'll make the effort (if it's in stock).
Now I'm getting confused by vector vs. vectorless which might be relevant... or not.

Thanks

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Lenze is basic 'white bread', economical, consistent, not a lot of issues reported, otherwise nothing special.

If your decision maker(s) expect another 20 years, you need to advise 10 is more realistic, 15 maybe, and also raise your expectations and up the budget accordingly. Climate isn't always helpful.

Try sorting an online listing most expensive down, instead of cheapest, up.
See who holds those places. Find out why folks who publish believe they can justify their higher price.

Then see who are number two & three, and if they are as good or better - or good enough and good value for money, better yet, have support SOMEWHERE within your national borders, local or not.

You may come back to these same two, but I doubt it.

Bill

Thanks.

To clarify, there is no "decision maker" i.e. it's me. I'm a one person shop and I do all the work and decide what to buy if I need something. I don't know anyone who knows much about this which is why it's a little difficult. After weeks of searching I found the local options.
I don't expect 20 years. I don't really have any specific expectations. I don't know how long the old one lasted since I bought it already defective (came with the lathe). It sort of works so the last owner didn't bother replacing it... but needs to be replaced.

I looked online. With the specs I need, among the most expensive ones were Lenze, Mitsubishi, Hitachi, Weg (others had "call for price"). Different models from those same companies were also among the cheapest. Some cost over $800. None of them sell Schneider or Delta that I could see.
The Schneider and Delta both cost around $300 here, so I guess I'm willing to pay up to about $400 or possibly even $500 if it's really worth it.

The main thing I understand is that it's probably not so important...? Basically just get one of them , it would probably be fine?
I learned a lot more about VFDs than I wanted to... I'm just a little tried after weeks of dealers not getting back to me, having to nag just to find out a price, product not in stock long after they told me it would be, trying to sell me an older discontinued model because the new one "doesn't exist" (after the company said it does and is in stock). There are no online stores with different models where you can just click and order what you want.

So I think I'll actually look less into this, just see what is in stock and who has decent service and base on that.

clarnibass said:

So I think I'll actually look less into this, just see what is in stock and who has decent service and base on that.

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I have a Weg in your power range. Decent, no magic. Galco overstock priced. But then, it would be. 120 VAC 3-P output is not a common winding here. Example of how many varieties exist in VFD's, though.

If online ordering is problematic, then yes, pick dealer first, any major make of the VFD he carries second. Some are better than others, some are good unit, wrong match to the load, as above.

No major maker can keep a truly bad one in the market for very long. They have to Just Work, else your lunch gets eaten by the other sharks.

Bill

Thanks so much for your help!

Monarchist said:

wrong match to the load, as above.

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Can you explain what this means? Not sure what you mean by load (the motor?) or what doesn't match it?

Coincidentally I just found another one locally, Yaskawa. I found an electricians forum with some people recommending it. Looks like the V1000 is the model that would fit what I need. It says "open loop", does that even matter? I sort of know what this means but not really... I have no idea if the others are open or closed loop anyway.

Someone here told me the Lenze dealer is good so that jumped to the top for now. I'll talk with Lenze and Yaskawa next and week and see.

clarnibass said:

Thanks so much for your help!


Can you explain what this means? Not sure what you mean by load (the motor?) or what doesn't match it?

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Air handling - fans & blowers - is a distinct market whole families of VFD are optimized for. Speed may vary on demand, few are reversible or ever need braked to a stop quickly, Aside from picking up some dirt, the fan is always the same mass, and not much in the way olf external force attempts to alter is velocity.

Any lathe may expect to be reversed, braked, called upon to swing a wide range of mass off its spindle. Tools may enter a continuous cut, or any of several types of interrupted ones. Materials and tool type present different loads, and holding RPM steady for unvarying rates of metal removal is highly desired, ELSe a touhg situation is worsened, tools may break, work be damaged.

Different demands on a VFD. Different VFD to best match to those demands.

Your zone is almost 'doesn't matter'. A 20 HP lathe - even 5 HP - and it very much does matter .

Coincidentally I just found another one locally, Yaskawa. I found an electricians forum with some people recommending it. Looks like the V1000 is the model that would fit what I need. It says "open loop", does that even matter? I sort of know what this means but not really... I have no idea if the others are open or closed loop anyway.

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You HAD no idea. If not already sought, as regulation under varying load is one of the places Vector vs Vectorless, open-loop vs closed-loop enters? Better you find the difference yourself. You will then 'own' that information - eg: understand and remember it better and longer.

Someone here told me the Lenze dealer is good so that jumped to the top for now. I'll talk with Lenze and Yaskawa next and week and see.

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Yaskawa // Magnetek made DC Drives, then VFD for quite a number of other brands before revealing themselves directly to the market under their own name. Sold many drives, ran many lifts and a great deal more for a long time already.

In the USA, we see Lenze as an American provider. Parent is a German firm. Either country, they serve a demanding set of customers.

You are off to a better start than you came in the door with. Have more choices already. Read more. As much as you have time for. One-man shop, you have to have many-man information to cover for the other guys who aren't there.

The challenge is soon going to be configuring a new VFD through a keypad. That can be tedious, even if it has self-helping routines that measure your motor's characteristics and try to set itself up to match.

Might want to download the manuals for each of them on your 'shortlist' and see if one is more appealing to you than another, just on ease of setup.

Each free manual you read helps better understand the next, makes choosing a drive likely to have a higher level of satisfaction and a longer service life.

Bill

Thanks so much!

Just an update.

I gave up on Schneider, service is awful.
The person from Delta was very nice and helpful but it's still not in stock.
Yaskawa replied and was also very helpful, so far this seems the best option, in stock, including technical support from them.
Lenze also answered fast but I didn't talk with them yet. Service is supposed to be good.

I don't know the Lenze price yet, but prices for all others are less than $50 apart anyway so a non-issue. I'm leaning towards Yaskawa because service is so far as good as Delta, it's available and generally seems to be a good known brand.
I might call Lenze to ask about it too.
I think one major difference is that Schneider has dealers which are just the big local electric supply stores, while the others are both dealers and importers of those companies.

It's funny, it took weeks of searching and still only found the Schneider and a no-name one.
Total coincidence, I was selling something completely unrelated and the person who called to buy it knew a lot about VFDs and told about the Delta and Lenze dealers.
You know those Google paid search results at the top that you never look at? That's how I found Yaskawa just a couple of days ago after weeks of Google searches.
The "funny" thing is, if the Schneider dealers were remotely interested in actually giving a price relatively fast then maybe I would have it already. They lost a sale because of their terrible dealers.

Just updating that I did go with the Yaskawa. Service was the best and everything in stock. Went with one model up (power) based on their suggestion for the specific use (price was almost the same anyway). Too busy to connect it right now but hope to do it next week and will see if it works like it should. Thanks again.

Tye V1000 is their "top of the line" drive, so it's not surprising that you like it. Yaskawa make good drives, always have. Here in the US they did not market them under their own name for a decade or so, the Japanese have a difficult time with our concepts of distribution, so they chose to brand label their drives to a half dozen of so different companies, all selling the exact same product under different names; Magnetek, Saftronics, EMS, Electromotive, Unico, IDM, Omron, maybe some others that I never knew of. But all that ended years ago and they only sell under their own name now, or Omron (because Yaskawa in Japan a huge Omron partner).

You chose well, you won't regret it.

"Open Loop" just means that with that drive, you can get excellent performance from it without the need for a motor shaft encoder (to "close the loop". Don't concern yourself with that though, it's for the 1% applications. For anything on a basic machine tool, Open Loop Vector is more than enough.

Just a final update, managed to connect the VFD and control switches and everything works fine.