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American Rotary - Is idler motor really different from a motor ?

At the very least, the Baldor part has no output shaft. I have no idea if any significant changes to the wiring are spec'd.
 
I'd say "squishy true" based on my limited experience with a 5hp version. The two differences I'm aware of are not having any output shaft and bearings that are supposed to float a bit and become quieter (so they say) over time. One could also describe those as cost reductions from a normal Baldor motor.

They also claim electrical cost savings -- lower draws than regular 3 phase motors at idle. I'm not sure what that's compared to, and how true.
 
I have no way to know if it is bs or not. What I can say is when I had a issue with my 20 HP AR converter after about 3 years of running the hell out of it they were all over it. FedEx both ways, same day repair, No Charge...They are great to deal with and sell a quality product. Two other shops that I deal with bought converters from them and have had no trouble at all with them. I also have a 10 HP converter that I built myself, It uses a standard 10 HP motor, the AR Baldor is for sure quieter.
 
It is probably true at base, although the difference is not exclusive to RPCs, sometimes motors are made the same way.

The rotor in my Arco RPC has a dual "cage winding", which is not often done on motors. But it can be, and has been done with motors in certain circumstances

There is a thin copper bar cage "winding" on the surface, and a thick aluminum bar cage "buried winding", which has no exposure on the actual rotor surface. This construction assists starting, and allows the use of the right balancing cap as a start cap, while improving the operation as an RPC.

The surface "cage" is active at start, since the slip frequency is high at start (it is at line frequency at the actual moment of turn-on). The high slip frequency cannot penetrate to the relatively high inductance buried "windings" of the aluminum, so only the thin copper cage, which is higher resistance and thus easy starting, is active. High resistance gives a better phase shift and so higher start torque.... the resistance 'dilutes" the inductance and produces a phase shift advanced relative to a normal rotor "winding" where the inductance causes a lag.

Once the "idler" has started and come up to speed, the slip frequency decreases and the main "winding", the aluminum "cage", is active. The high resistance copper winding "cage" is out of the picture due to low frequency slip, and high resistance.

A higher inductance rotor can be an advantage, since it retains a higher magnetic field as it turns through the poles for the "manufactured" leg, and should therefore produce a better output. (stored energy is proportional to inductance with equal currents).

The problem with doing that only is starting, it would be sluggish at best, or even non-starting without the help of the low inductance surface winding "cage" .
 
I've got a spare 21HP Ronk Rotoverter idler I would sell. You could buy the control box from any of the players and have a pretty good system. PM me if interested.
 
It is probably true at base, although the difference is not exclusive to RPCs, sometimes motors are made the same way.

The rotor in my Arco RPC has a dual "cage winding", which is not often done on motors. But it can be, and has been done with motors in certain circumstances

There is a thin copper bar cage "winding" on the surface, and a thick aluminum bar cage "buried winding", which has no exposure on the actual rotor surface. This construction assists starting, and allows the use of the right balancing cap as a start cap, while improving the operation as an RPC.

The surface "cage" is active at start, since the slip frequency is high at start (it is at line frequency at the actual moment of turn-on). The high slip frequency cannot penetrate to the relatively high inductance buried "windings" of the aluminum, so only the thin copper cage, which is higher resistance and thus easy starting, is active. High resistance gives a better phase shift and so higher start torque.... the resistance 'dilutes" the inductance and produces a phase shift advanced relative to a normal rotor "winding" where the inductance causes a lag.

Once the "idler" has started and come up to speed, the slip frequency decreases and the main "winding", the aluminum "cage", is active. The high resistance copper winding "cage" is out of the picture due to low frequency slip, and high resistance.

A higher inductance rotor can be an advantage, since it retains a higher magnetic field as it turns through the poles for the "manufactured" leg, and should therefore produce a better output. (stored energy is proportional to inductance with equal currents).

The problem with doing that only is starting, it would be sluggish at best, or even non-starting without the help of the low inductance surface winding "cage" .


It isn't quite like that...

The idler is working with severely unbalanced phases (power coming in on one phase, going out on two phases). This causes a large counter rotating field or, if you prefer, the normal three phase rotating field plus a large oscillating field. As a result of this, the rotor windings are always carrying a large 60Hz induced current, even when the idler is up to speed. The outer copper winding will carry this current in preference to the deeper aluminium winding because the high frequency as you said, but it is carrying that current all the time, not just on startup.

I don't feel like reproducing the 8 pages of maths needed to analyse this and the resulting 120Hz torques on the rotor, like I had to do back in '96 when demonstrating to our mechanically oriented design department why unbalanced alternator currents broke turbine blades, so you'll just have to take my word for it.:typing:


regards
mark
 
It isn't quite like that...

The idler is working with severely unbalanced phases (power coming in on one phase, going out on two phases). This causes a large counter rotating field or, if you prefer, the normal three phase rotating field plus a large oscillating field. As a result of this, the rotor windings are always carrying a large 60Hz induced current, even when the idler is up to speed. The outer copper winding will carry this current in preference to the deeper aluminium winding because the high frequency as you said, but it is carrying that current all the time, not just on startup.

regards
mark

That's not quite what was said...............

The deep winding WON'T carry as much on startup. AND a lower resistance winding won't give as much starting torque.....but it works a bit better for action as an RPC....

So what is done is to add the higher resistance "surface" winding, and bury the other one. What that does is to allow the idler to start better, AND still behave well as an RPC....

When the rotor is slow at startup, the slip frequency is the difference between the back EMF frequency and the line frequency.... A buried winding is shielded from that to some degree, and so the higher resistance surface winding is dominant, giving decent starting characteristics , preferably without the need for a big bank of starting capacitors. (My Arco has NO start caps, and NO switch, but others do)

Once the rotor is up to speed, the lower slip frequency can penetrate to the buried winding, inducing currents in it as is normal for any motor. There are motors with buried rotor bars and NO surface bars..... it's a design decision, perhaps for higher speeds, to retain the bars better.

The fields created by the currents persist as long as the currents do, and as the rotor turns, generate back EMF in other windings. As it happens, the windings connected to the generated phase's wire have little correctly phased exciting voltage on them, and so that induced voltage is almost all effective in producing output current, and a counter-torque is produced on the rotor.

The rotor torque slows the rotor and yes it does increase the input current by decreasing the back emf. Of course there are large rotor currents, that's how it works.

However, since the two windings share a net field, if the same volts per turn are applied to two coils, and one has higher resistance, it will carry less current.

So there is a transfer of current from predominately surface winding at startup, to a sharing with a lot of current carried by the lower resistance buried windings as slip frequency decreases.

The motor is producing an electrical output (which has a perfectly good shaft reaction), of 1/3 of the load motor's rating, max. After all it is generating a current on only one wire, which, if taken as the wye equivalent, is providing 1/3 of the total power delivered to the load motor. Consequently, 2/3 must be due to current coming in directly from the single phase source.

But, the load motor is conventionally 2/3 or less of the idler motor rated power. So, the power put through the idler is 1/3 of 2/3 of the idler rating. Absent a very considerable set of losses, it seems difficult to get to the idler FLA as input current.

So, I don't believe, according to my figuring and hand-waving above, that the input current to the idler is normally ever equal to the idler FLA on the two input wires, which was (or appeared to be) the original contention in the post to which I replied.
 
The out of balance idler current (due to the single phase input current and the generated current on the other phases) will always be present as the equivalent of a large slip component. That was my point. The copper outer winding will be doing a lot of work even when the idler's up to speed. It is a good design tweak to cope with the duty that's specific to an RPC idler, not just easing startup. For purely motor duty, 'L' shaped bars are used for heavy startup duty, but this sounds as if someone's actually thought about what an RPC idler does.

Honest:)

Regards
Mark
 
but this sounds as if someone's actually thought about what an RPC idler does.

Indeed.....

And it seems the FLA comment is actually from a different thread...... I apparently have been answering two at once..... that's what I get for being in a hurry.
 
American Rotary Idler

I hope you all don't mind if a manufacturer chimes in.

American Rotary has 12 years of dedicated idler development. The currently idler is designed and manufactured to provide balanced voltage from both single phase lines to the manufactured line, well beyond off the shelf modified 3-phase motors. The performance characteristics are similar to a low impedance motor while running, with D performance characteristics at starting.
NEMA D (higher impedance) is great for reducing inrush currents, but has some loss in voltage stability. The AR idler has a completely different type of rotor design with a variable characteristic. It retains the soft-start capability similar to the D style motor, and yet when at synchronous speed, it has the voltage stability that is even better than a B type motor. We identified a few parameters of motors that were really only needed to provide torque, and since a rotary phase converter idler does not need to provide any shaft torque (only what it needed to accelerate it and keep it at synchronous speed), we were able to optimize the rotor design quite a bit to get better performance for a phase converter. The idlers end up having not only better voltage stability (holding ability or line stiffness) and balance, but the sinewaves aren’t distorted and less capacitance is needed for voltage balance which keeps phase shift in check, and transient currents and harmonic feedback from VFD's are also virtually eliminated from entering back into the utility line. Overall, it is very different than a stock 3-phase motor.

If you guys come across information on phase converters that needs clarifying, please don't hesitate to call or email me. This is what I do for a living, I would be glad to discuss or help.

David Rehm
1-262-402-6400
[email protected]
 
Than you very much for joining the thread Mr Rehm.

It is great to know that support for your product is widespread enough to even be included here.

Service after the sale is one of the most important factors for many and when an effort is made to educate folks who may never buy from you as a courtesy it shows how available you make yourselves to anyone when needed,let alone customers.
 
Mr. Rehm, I also thank you for your participation. I have one question- you refer to the motor getting up to synchronous speed. Is it actually locked into the 60 cycles? I have often thought that if I were to make another converter, I would look for synchronous motor or find a generator, provide some means to get it close to speed, and lock it with DC on the armature. Since I now have three phase in my shop, this is just a theoretical question, but I am curious.

Bill
 
"but the sinewaves aren’t distorted..."

Ooh. Pictures?

You show me yours, I'll put up mine, from my stone-age converter.
Works, but hardly a pure sine wave. Yours will probably look better....
 
Synchronouse Speed Idler for Rotary Phase Converter & TEFC vs Open.

Thanks for the welcome!

I will certainly get a screen shot of the sinewaves for you. I can also run just about any simulation as we have our idlers just about perfectly modeled in an in house program.

When I mentioned synchronous speed, I was really referring to the actual synchronous speed of the idler which is closer to an induction motor in construction, but due to no load on a shaft, and very little power used in cooling, they run basically at synchronous speed. Synchronous speed = (120*Freq)/number of poles. GENTEC & American Rotary both use a 4 pole induction design so on a 60hz frequency AC line, the rotational velocity will be 1800 rpm. We found that the 1800 rpm, 4 pole design lasts longer, is much quieter than a 2 pole design, and just simply more rugged. The cost of using a true synchronous AC motor for phase conversion is probably not cost effective as well as having some technical hurdles to overcome. Our "induction generator" is open air cooled which requires a lot less energy than a closed TEFC type motor. This cooling power used by a TEFC causes slip which ultimately causes some distortion of the sinewave, which is one of the main reasons to use an open type idler for equipment that is sensitive to phase distortion, phase angles etc. Generating a line of current is different than just putting utility 3-phase into a motor. I see many manufacturers selling TEFC idler based phase converters by selling the TEFC "motor" selling points, with disregard (or maybe just not understanding) the technical penalties of what they are selling. They are o.k. for running a simple motor (you can run a simple motor on a square wave), but not good for those who want real quality 3-phase power.

David
 
I have one question- you refer to the motor getting up to synchronous speed. Is it actually locked into the 60 cycles? I have often thought that if I were to make another converter, I would look for synchronous motor or find a generator

When I mentioned synchronous speed, I was really referring to the actual synchronous speed of the idler which is closer to an induction motor in construction, but due to no load on a shaft, and very little power used in cooling, they run basically at synchronous speed. Synchronous speed = (120*Freq)/number of poles.

I will take this as NO.
 
I will take this as NO.

Sounds like it....

Despite talk about no load, I don't see how the energy gets out on the generated leg unless the rotor has a magnetic field which turns past the coils....... which is of course what happens.... That MUST create a drag on the rotor, with the energy made up by motor action inputting energy TO the rotor.... Somewhere there exists what you would have to call a torque, even if it never comes out of the case.
 








 
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