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Life span of a Phase Perfect.

Granite

Aluminum
Joined
Jan 24, 2008
Location
Boston, MA
I have a phase perfect that is about 10 years old. Very light use. the red light comes on and the unit no longer works. I am disappointed that they no longer support the device.
Cannot get replacement boards.

Is this the normal expected life of a Phase perfect?
 
If you pitch it then you got about what? $300 per year for the service life. Get knowledgeable and try to fix it. Look at the circuit board(s) and try to locate what the problem is. Lots of electronic gear is thrown out when the fault is a simple device failure. Often electrical devices fail at the points of interface to the outside world.
 
I don't know, but if you want to junk it, I'd like to buy it and see if I can make it go again.

FWIW, an independent electronic repairman could probably get it going again. It's no more complicated than a high end servo drive.
 
I am in the same boat as you - really sucks! The tech tried to help me out, but still no luck.
Looking for a Place I could ship the board to??
Paul
 
I don't know, but if you want to junk it, I'd like to buy it and see if I can make it go again.

FWIW, an independent electronic repairman could probably get it going again. It's no more complicated than a high end servo drive.


I had an electronics guy look it over. Everything is potted. Said you would destroy the board in an attempt to fix it.
 
I have some experience with electronics. Give me the model number and I google a little and see if it is something I might be able to fix for you.

CarlBoyd
 
It depends a lot on the potting compound. if it is a soft material, it may be able to be peeled out/off. if it is a hard material, you are likely to be "escrewed".

Even if it is soft, it may remove the part information on the parts.... although most have been laser etched for many years, and that might not be an issue. The hard stuff is usually an epoxy, often chemically similar to the part overmolding, and while you can get it out with certain processes, they may or may not also damage the part overmolding to the point you won't know what is who.
 
That is what you say when you don't want to mess with it.

That isn't a technical barrier. Wakefield Semi sold a solvent even for Deltacast, half a century ago.

It is an ECONOMIC issue.

It may pay a third-world country to remove the cast material and attempt field repair on an over-age-in-grade combat aircraft avionics subsystem - most especially if they are embargoed as well as impoverished. I suspect that has been going on for as long as potting compounds have existed, simple chemistry OR exotic.

It CANNOT pay even cheap wages + overheads for a Phase-Perfect. Nor is it even wise for those who might take it on as labour of love.

Later-model, better ones just aren't that costly - used or even NEW - when the cost is amortized over their typical service life.

Most especially NOT if earning "revenue" and meeting deadlines with the machine-tools they supply must depend on them functioning, all-day, every-day.

2cw
 
To be fair, it would pay many folks to get repaired boards. Thre may be many reasons, including wanting a cheap spare PP, etc. It depends a lot on how much trouble it is to remove the potting to begin with.

it also matters a LOT what the bad part is. If a "programmed" part is bad, then you are in trouble, because you will almost surely never get the program so that you can program a new chip.

other parts may be obsolete, and unavailable at sensible prices. That means re-engineering at least, which adds more issues.

I feel pretty certain that I COULD fix a P-P (or design one), but I would not bother to try the fix, just because of the number of unknowns and variables involved. Maybe if I owned it, and had nothing to lose. Or if it were NOT potted. And if I developed a test routine to be sure that the repaired part met reasonable specs......
 
There are a couple of reasons to pot things. One, is to protect proprietary information, and to prevent any attempted repair, another is to resist vibration damage, and a third is for atmospheric problems, like corrosion/mold. Usually this is done with conformal coating. These can generally be removed. If it is a programmable, and protected against readout, you are done. It seems much more likely to be a "power" part. Like mentioned before, these parts are susceptible to lightning, external shorts...

That said, I think it is extremely poor to abandon a product after ten years. Can you imagine if someone told you your 10 year old CNC was irreparable? They should give you a heck of a good discount on a new unit.

regards,

Jon P.
 
There are a couple of reasons to pot things. One, is to protect proprietary information, and to prevent any attempted repair, another is to resist vibration damage, and a third is for atmospheric problems, like corrosion/mold.
I ain't even gonna open my OWN 'blue case' 10 HP to tell yah the more likely reason here is to provide much better thermal dissipation to power elements 'as well as' the rest of the list. One of the earliest players - Wakefield Semi's "Delta Cast" was first and foremost a superb thermal conductor and superb electrical insulator. The shock, moisture, biologicals, and enhanced tamper resistance were useful byproducts - very much so - but byproducts nonetheless.

That said, I think it is extremely poor to abandon a product after ten years. Can you imagine if someone told you your 10 year old CNC was irreparable? They should give you a heck of a good discount on a new unit.


To be fair, Phase Technologies is a relatively young company, and not a very large or affluent one at that.

Where goods have to live under 'code' and such, sometimes one MUST cease supporting earlier-generation gear, ELSE become a subsidiary of a bank in support of Lawsters and fail for lack of ability to deliver useful goods at any sane price.

That basic.

Not to forget that more often than not - their goods DO last as long as - or longer than - other options that must operate in the same spikey-grid, near-miss lightning-strike, and frequently spikey-rude load environment.

It's a bit like rubber tires and road hazards.

Even if one could afford never-go-flat ones?

Who'd want to RIDE on them or try to steer well? And how long d'you suppose the tread would last, anyway?

Most of us find it more sane to just accept that we have to 'play the odds' and shell out for new - but AFFORDABLE - ones now and then.
 
Let me get this straight.

Costs thousands of dollars.
Quits after ten years of normal use.
Probably has about fifty bucks of real parts in it.
You can't fix it.
They won't fix it.
It's all proprietary.

Compare with:

Costs forty dollars
Still running after 30 years
Has forty dollars of real parts it.
Don't need to fix it.
If it does break, easy to fix.
Open source code.

This is why I would shy away from a PP, in favor of my rotary converter.
 
There are a couple of reasons to pot things. One, is to protect proprietary information, and to prevent any attempted repair, another is to resist vibration damage, and a third is for atmospheric problems, like corrosion/mold. Usually this is done with conformal coating. These can generally be removed. If it is a programmable, and protected against readout, you are done. It seems much more likely to be a "power" part. Like mentioned before, these parts are susceptible to lightning, external shorts...

That said, I think it is extremely poor to abandon a product after ten years. Can you imagine if someone told you your 10 year old CNC was irreparable? They should give you a heck of a good discount on a new unit.

regards,

Jon P.



Given the environment that the things are installed into, I feel pretty sure that the reason for potting (which may actually be conformal coating) is to prevent damage from conductive dust, such as grinding dust, etc. Condensation is another issue of the same importance, since the PP may be installed in an area that is for all intents and purposes the same as being under a shed. It's quite sensible to do that.

It is reasonably common to "pot"or "conformal coat" the boards in HVAC equipment, for similar reasons.

"Potting" is generally understood to be putting the electronics into a 5 sided box, and filling it up above the electronic parts with some form of "goo". Soft, hard, epoxy, silicone, some are even a material that is semi-liquid, like very thick jell-o. That sort of material is usually used inside the modules in a VFD.

Conformal coating may be a similar material, (but not the Jell-O type) that is simply poured over the components on the PWB. May be again soft, hard, etc.

Neither is generally used as a heatsink compound, at least not other than for regular board-mounted components. For power devices, the heatsinking is through very thin layers of heatsink "grease", which may actually be a filled wax material. ANYTHING thicker has too much thermal resistance to be used as a primary heat path in a power application.

As for longevity and repairability, 10 years is not bad. The requirement has been in consumer goods that the item should be repairable for 5 years past the last sale, but that is widely ignored. Many companies will not do any repairs nor support repair companies with parts, for any units that are not under warranty.

For industrial equipment, I am not sure if there is any time requirement.

When the stock of parts is gone, it's gone. A small run of parts for repair purposes is likely to be expensive, if it is even possible to obtain the parts at the present time. The higher cost of s small run would cut into the potential for actual sales of them, folks would just replace, since by that time other things will be degraded as well.

And, as noted, the device may not be up to current standards, although most will be grandfathered, and for such items repairs are normally permitted.

Rotary converter?

Very effective in most cases. Not ALL cases..... Provides a "similar" output as the PP, but not balanced anywhere near as well, and with a definite lower output on the generated leg under load and even at idle without special load-dependent compensation..

if you can use it.... great. if not, then you want real 3 phase, and the PP provides output at least as good as native 3 phase.
 
Let me get this straight.

Costs thousands of dollars.
Quits after ten years of normal use.
Probably has about fifty bucks of real parts in it.
You can't fix it.
They won't fix it.
It's all proprietary.

Compare with:

Costs forty dollars
Still running after 30 years
Has forty dollars of real parts it.
Don't need to fix it.
If it does break, easy to fix.
Open source code.

This is why I would shy away from a PP, in favor of my rotary converter.

*yawn* My dick probably is SMALLER than yours, but before we go there..

10 HP RPC

10 HP P-P

and neither one is as good as the 3-Phase off the MEP-803a at about 20% greater constant load, and 50% + greater peak capability, near-as-dammit AT sea-level, not 8,000 feet up, as I am.

Just better-smelling and CHEAPER, P-P and RPC are, wot with the cost of #2 Diesel, etc.

Now... wots left?

Aha!

'Native' AKA utility-mains GRID 3-Phase, right?

Real point is that 10 or 15 years use out of a P-P is still a rather reasonably cost-effective deal, and it 'really is' better-quality, 100% nameplate sustainable at the load ergs.

Note how damned hard it as always been to find affordable used ones.

Not 'coz they went to a recycler, either.

'Coz those who HAVE 'em don't want to let go of 'em.

Starting? No free lunch, either way.

"The grid" exists for sound reasons, after all. Several.

So there. Can we just zip up our drawers now?

:)
 
Phase Technologies is private, so I don't think much is known about their financials. For an industrial product, I think 10 years is too short. While not all parts are available for long, that's what last time buys are for. Also, they could just design in a new part. It's not exactly impossible (done it many times). They probably just didn't want to, and given that they have no competition, they can kind of do what they want.

Before I bought one, I would ask how long it is going to be supported.

Jon P.
 








 
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