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Looking for plans for 3PH 3HP VFD

Daughty

Aluminum
Joined
Nov 25, 2017
So I've got a 1941 14 1/2 South bend lathe, the motor is 3PH 220/440 1.5HP motor on it.

I'm looking for plans for a single phase in and a 3 phase out -- 3 HP VFD.

Any input or help would be greatly appreciated.
 
You're asking for PLANS? As in circuit board patterns from which you can etch and drill your own boards, a parts list which you will source yourself, and some means of doing all the programming once it's finished?

Or were you asking about something else?
 
We used an Allen Bradley 13xx on ours.

Common on Ebay for about $200.00 or so.

Go to the AB Web page and download a manual and you can see the application table that shows the models so you can get right one.

It has a table showing voltage, hp and phase input and required unit.

Most common are the higher voltage units but 240 volt models do show up.

We modified the drum switch to have one set of contacts "make" first and used it for the "stop" and the other 2 as "run" and "reverse".

Made frame that mounts to chip tray bolts under bed to support the box with vfd and added a foot bar for stop.

Looks factory with original drum switch control.

Added pot and main switch under bed.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337Z using Tapatalk
 
We used an Allen Bradley 13xx on ours.

Common on Ebay for about $200.00 or so.

Go to the AB Web page and download a manual and you can see the application table that shows the models so you can get right one.

It has a table showing voltage, hp and phase input and required unit.

Most common are the higher voltage units but 240 volt models do show up.

We modified the drum switch to have one set of contacts "make" first and used it for the "stop" and the other 2 as "run" and "reverse".

Made frame that mounts to chip tray bolts under bed to support the box with vfd and added a foot bar for stop.

Looks factory with original drum switch control.

Added pot and main switch under bed.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337Z using Tapatalk
Note that ALL A-B drives starting with 13.. are over 20 years old now and 100% obsolete. They can no longer be supported / repaired because the parts used to make or repair them are no longer available, which is why they are cheap on Fleabay and elsewhere. Buyer beware...
 
So....

Is it really "VFD" plans you want, (Variable speed drive, an electronic device)

Or do you want to know how to hook one up? (look in the manual, lots of manuals are on-line)

Or perhaps, as suggested, do you really want plans for an "RPC"? (Rotary phase converter, an electrical device including an idler motor, and not necessarily having any electronics at all).

To make it short....

If you want VFD plans, forget about it.... if you have to ask, you can't do it.

If you want RPC plans, look up in the sticky at the top.... there are more than you could ever want. We can help with it.

If you want to know how to hoook a VFD up, then we can help, but you need to read the manual first, and tell us what parts you do not understand.
 
Note that ALL A-B drives starting with 13.. are over 20 years old now and 100% obsolete. They can no longer be supported / repaired because the parts used to make or repair them are no longer available, which is why they are cheap on Fleabay and elsewhere. Buyer beware...

It's obvious that you are talking about the board level. There are plenty of component parts in my drives that are still made. To name a few:

LN2676 5 volt regulator
filter capacitors
bypass capacitors
power resistors
1320 opto-couplers
miniature relays
etc....

Then there is a term called cross reference...

That's the difference. I can release four plastic tabs and one screw and the drive is easily opened up and everything is in plain view. The HID is detachable so in case it goes south it can be replaced. A lot of them are available. And once the drive is programmed it does not require a display, it can be detached and used on another drive. Try that with a POS TECO.

If the user does something stupid and blows up a board then it's all over unless it can be recovered in a second drive. But, if you did the same thing in a new import the replacement/labour cost would not be worth it and the little POS would be tossed.
 
Note that ALL A-B drives starting with 13.. are over 20 years old now and 100% obsolete. They can no longer be supported / repaired because the parts used to make or repair them are no longer available, which is why they are cheap on Fleabay and elsewhere. Buyer beware...
What is your point sir?

The lathe is over 70 years old...

There are many newer cheaper devices that cost more than the AB unit and likely not as well built.

We got ours for $199.00 delivered to our door in like new condition.

For our use it is fine.

For commercial use maybe as replacement on short notice may be issue but then if needed buy a spare and be money ahead.

A SB 14.5 may not be intended for full production where servicing the VFD fast would be issue.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337Z using Tapatalk
 
Tony, I understand the point. But I'm with you. Don't be offended. Funny thing I discovered in a Hitachi drive manual I was reading today. Said that you should have a spare drive so that you don't experience any down time. Don't recall reading anything like that in my Allen-Bradley manuals.

For my situation I bought a AB drive for $150 that sells new for about $1500. My purpose was to get quality and avoid a import. I can also disassemble the AB and disconnect the control board and attach my own design one day. In another thread a purchase error was made, the ebay item was a 400VAC not 480VAC or 240VAC. That new AB drive costs $2400. If it was me I would have done some research first. It can be put up for sale again, and try, try, again.
 
What is your point sir?
Well... first, you tell them what you are going to tell them:

The capacitors a VFD depends on have finite lives. More than one mode of age and use related degradation.

Then you tell them:

The more reputable VFD makers even recommend the replacement point. Seven to nine years after it left the factory is not uncommon. Production date is usually ink-stamped on the basic label, post-production.


Then you tell them what you told them:

The caps NEED TO BE REPLACED. As recommended. "Re-forming" is not a bad move, but it is but a band-aid. It cannot, and DOES NOT, unwind the clocks, plural, entirely.


So.... WHEN, not IF, one moves to replace capacitors that a maker purchased by the thousands, tens, and hundreds of thousands at deeply volume-discounted prices, new ones that both meet the spec AND physically FIT, are nearly always more costly that a new VFD with the latest components - even technological improvements from lessons learned, their own field-failures, plus those of others in the industry.

New VFD of course, also contains NEW caps - all again bought at very high volume and deeply discounted competitive prices.

FWIW-not-much-dept. A brand-spanking new, and serious expensive 10 HP Phase-Perfect ALSO sez - right in the manual - that its capacitors are to be replaced periodically. At THREE YEAR intervals, to be precise. Not theory. I OWN the bugger!

No help for it. In POWER service, not as tiny signal-conditioning devices, AFFORDABLE capacitors are ephemeral components.

Perishable, IOW.

BFD, VFD.

So are most foodstuffs. We Just Deal With That.

You want a "thousand year old egg?" with your expected live-forever VFD?

Be aware they are commonly preserved with urea recovered from China's industrial scale animal husbandry operations. And weeks old, not millenia old.

Good news, actually, because the legendary longer-lived originals used lead compounds!

Old VFD can be full of unpleasant surprises, too.

:)
 
Well... first, you tell them what you are going to tell them:

The capacitors a VFD depends on have finite lives. More than one mode of age and use related degradation.

Then you tell them:

The more reputable VFD makers even recommend the replacement point. Seven to nine years after it left the factory is not uncommon. Production date is usually ink-stamped on the basic label, post-production.


Then you tell them what you told them:

The caps NEED TO BE REPLACED. As recommended. "Re-forming" is not a bad move, but it is but a band-aid. It cannot, and DOES NOT, unwind the clocks, plural, entirely.


So.... WHEN, not IF, one moves to replace capacitors that a maker purchased by the thousands, tens, and hundreds of thousands at deeply volume-discounted prices, new ones that both meet the spec AND physically FIT, are nearly always more costly that a new VFD with the latest components - even technological improvements from lessons learned, their own field-failures, plus those of others in the industry.

New VFD of course, also contains NEW caps - all again bought at very high volume and deeply discounted competitive prices.

FWIW-not-much-dept. A brand-spanking new, and serious expensive 10 HP Phase-Perfect ALSO sez - right in the manual - that its capacitors are to be replaced periodically. At THREE YEAR intervals, to be precise. Not theory. I OWN the bugger!

No help for it. In POWER service, not as tiny signal-conditioning devices, AFFORDABLE capacitors are ephemeral components.

Perishable, IOW.

BFD, VFD.

So are most foodstuffs. We Just Deal With That.

You want a "thousand year old egg?" with your expected live-forever VFD?

Be aware they are commonly preserved with urea recovered from China's industrial scale animal husbandry operations. And weeks old, not millenia old.

Good news, actually, because the legendary longer-lived originals used lead compounds!

Old VFD can be full of unpleasant surprises, too.

:)

The question was not addressed to you, sir.
 
Ok I'll specify a bit more. I'm wondering how to hook up a VFD. It needs to be a single phase in 120-220 and a 3 phase out 220-440. My motor is 1.5 horsepower and I'm looking for a VFD that handles 3 HP. So recommendation on a decent VFD would be helpful as well.

This is the one I'm looking at as of right now.

HITACHI NES1-22SB, 3 HP, 23 VAC, 1 PHASE INPUT, VFD, With OPERATOR | eBay

View attachment 225820
View attachment 225821

Hitachi are respected. The model you selected seems a fit. The manuals are free for the download to research further if you feel the need.

Drives Warehouse are respected dealers as well. And.. they post a phone number and invite you to ask if not certain.

Do that.

Before Rons tries to sell you on buying a risky antique 'coz it left the factory "back in the day" with a heavier bone-structure and a once-upon-a-time more muscular set of arse muscles. Ones long-since atrophied, of course. Nature of the components.
 
I second Tony's note on the 13xx. I made a cheat-sheet for programming and wiring, and while the concerns of capacitor age are correct, my experience has been that this concern has been overstated. All my drives are old, not a single one has capacitors that didn't appear in them the day they were made, and NONE of them have failed. They are, however, very ordinary capacitors, I purchased a set of replacements with the full intention of a destructive life test, but that point has yet to come.
 
I have replaced a few of the older ABB 13XX boat anchors, the newer VFDs have many more programmable functions an features in a much smaller size. Capacitors, in particular electrolytic ones fail over time, the rate is dependent on many factors. It is a known fact that the VFDs that sit on the shelf for extended periods of time can fail once first energized, so why take the risk in particular in the used VFDs. If you have the experience and ability to fix them, then you wouldn't be asking what VFD to buy. I would never suggest to a client buying a 20 YO VFD, not sure why it even comes up as a suggestion for inexperienced users. There are very good new VFDs at similar pricing with a warranty and tech support.

There is a recent discussion of recommended VFDs in the posting below, I suggest reading it as to VFD recommendations. I would stick with a 2Hp VFD, there is nothing gained going with a 3Hp for a 1.5Hp motor. Your motor is quite old, so I would be conservative as to the carrier frequency, overload settings, and maximum RPM. The input power and output motor connections are straight forward, you typically use either 2 wire control to the inputs using a sustained switch or 3 wire which uses momentary switches. If you specify the machine you will be using the VFD for, you can be provided with more specific information. I also suggest reading the VFD manuals for the VFD you are looking at.
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...-questions-about-vfd-1-1-2-bridgeport-349314/
 
I second Tony's note on the 13xx. I made a cheat-sheet for programming and wiring, and while the concerns of capacitor age are correct, my experience has been that this concern has been overstated. All my drives are old, not a single one has capacitors that didn't appear in them the day they were made, and NONE of them have failed. They are, however, very ordinary capacitors, I purchased a set of replacements with the full intention of a destructive life test, but that point has yet to come.

It is not so much a concern. It is a scare tactic. The drive market for the one-man garage sector is not equivalent to the industrial sector.

Soft charge front-ends and dc link inductors. My AB drives have two huge link inductors. Not in small import varieties who would give you a whopping 3 year warranty and have you come back in 3 years and 1 month to buy a new drive.

A rather easy to understand article. It is old too:
https://www.controldesign.com/assets/10WPpdf/100517_Yaskawa_VFD.pdf

I have a few pieces of test equipment built in the 80's that have filter capacitors. Never replaced one capacitor.
 
I second Tony's note on the 13xx. I made a cheat-sheet for programming and wiring, and while the concerns of capacitor age are correct, my experience has been that this concern has been overstated. All my drives are old, not a single one has capacitors that didn't appear in them the day they were made, and NONE of them have failed. They are, however, very ordinary capacitors, I purchased a set of replacements with the full intention of a destructive life test, but that point has yet to come.

Like Dave, I doubt that I have an electrolytic capacitor that is less than 20 years old. Being an antique radio/electronics collector, I have a cross section of such equipment over the years. Reforming or replacing electrolytics on the oldest equipment is practically mandatory. I have a battery eliminator from the 20s that has to be reformed every time I start it, which of course I don't do often. Capacitors in radios from the 30s and 40s fail regularly. I have had only two failures with capacitors later than the 60s. One was simply over cooking it in an experimental 10EE magamp controlled setup and the other was in a magnetizer where a bank of capacitors are charged up to their limit and discharged through an ignitron. I have no way to measure the peak current but looking at the discharge slope with an oscilloscope, I calculate somewhere around 125,000 amps. I don't claim that is gospel, but it is one hell of a pulse. Neither case can be considered indicative of normal service.

The Boston Gear VFD, made by a US company whose name I don't recall and marketed by BG, has been hanging on the side of my Boston Digital mill for more than 20 years and in that time I have done exactly nothing to it. The servo drives were made in 1977 and have never had a faiure.

In short, capacitor aging is a definite factor with ones made before the 60s. With anything made from the 70s on, I don't worry about it.

I ran the late 60s version of your lathe for over 40 years. For much of that time there was a 15" Sheldon on the other side of the room. The SB doesn't come close to the Sheldon on an objective comparison but the SB was build to a price and from the "bang for the buck" viewpoint, they did a terrific job. We did some really good work with it. Every time you use it, check the spindle bearing lubrication.

Bill
 
I also have many old units and capacitors. None have failed, but of course that does not prove they will not later.

I reform because it is easier than cleaning up after one pops. Maybe it helps, I know it will not hurt.
 








 
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