Phase Perfect maintenance, capacitors, etc ?

While I'm moving into the new shop I decided its time I take a look inside these.
Seems quite a few of us have these units, but do any of us really do the capacitor maintenance on them? I've not noticed it ever really being talked about on here, part of why I started this thread(I'll also email PP about getting new capacitors). Is there anything else we should look at(other than dust/arcing/hot wires) ?

I have a blue, DPC-A10 (10hp, bought around 2007-2008 I think) used pretty near every day since probably around 30k/hrs On time, and a newer PT-355(20hp), maybe 4-5yrs old but only a few hundreds hours on that one.

I never did anything to either one yet. I'm surprised how clean the inside of the 10HP unit still is considering it was under the bench I do my grinding/sanding on, still look brand new and no dust in there. Manual says there's Line Filter capacitors that should be changed every 3yrs and inspected more regularly. I see no bulge or anything on any of these in either unit, but its probably time to change them anyway eh?

Slight trouble is its pretty cramped in there, do you guys have any trick to doing this if you're changed them? can't just pop them out, wires and things in the way on the 10HP unit, 20hp looks a tiny bit easier but they're still a ways in there to reach at.
On the 10hp unit I also noticed 4 other black plastic shell canisters that look like big capacitors as well(I can't see a sticker for what they are/rating, probably 3x the size of the little metal ones) what's the deal with those things, are they capacitors too? no need to replace? (pictures coming)

One thing I noticed on the 10hp, there's a board capacitor, 3300uF, 80V that is starting to bulge a bit. I feel like I should replace it now, which looks like a bit of work to get the board off and all that but I've done it before for guitar amplifiers and such so I think I could manage. But at the same time I feel like with around 10yrs... maybe I shouldn't screw with any of it at all for risk of jinxing it... what would you do?

Other odd bit, the Line filter capacitors on my 10hp are 20uf, but manual calls for 40uF? maybe it got changed in a slight redesign after mine?
anyhow, I'll email them to see and also probably order these capacitors right from them since google isn't finding this part#.

thanks

I emailed Phase Perfect about the cost for the line filter caps for my DPC-30 that I picked up from another member on the forum. I was quoted 32$ each plus shipping.

I think the caps that are located else where on the machine are considered permanent and aren't considered a maintenenace item. The way I interperted the manual was that line caps are filtering unwanted frequencies from the output of the unit and that if they failed it could damage downstream components. If one of the larger caps fail, I would assume that would likely trigger a fault and shut down the unit.

It would be wise to take a few pictures, especially of the bulged capacitor. And if you are determined to remove board capacitors then a decent soldering iron is needed. What you don't want to do is have a board pad that lifts off the board because too much heat was applied. Use a solder sucker to remove excess solder before removing the capacitors. Solder flux helps when soldering components.

Now I feel neglectful.

My new in 2005 10HP soldiers on in its 12th year. Never an issue of any description - nor ever a look inside. When it dies, it will be replaced - having fully done what was expected of it.

Annual cost so far 200 bucks

Non-electrolytic capacitors do not really have a "wear-out" mechanism. I presume that the ones in question are similar to motor-run capacitors, metal cased, with terminals on one end.

The only ways a capacitor can be a problem are if it is "open", "leaky (including shorted), or has lost capacitance.

* If it is open, it has lost all capacitance, and is doing nothing, not doing what it is intended to do. That is measurable, many meters will measure capacitance.

* If it is shorted, it will probably now be "open" as they have a safety link in them that is intended to act as a fuse.

* If it is leaky, it will overheat, and probably fail shorted eventually, blowing the link and showing up as "open".

* If it has lost some, but not all, capacitance, it is not doing all it should do. Some part of the innards has become disconnected. A capacitance meter, or meter function on a DMM, will show that.

Any of the above issues are grounds for replacement without a question. if the capacitor does not have one of the above problems, it is still working and does not need replacement.

It may be that PP is suggesting that one of the above problems becomes more likely with age, because they know they are "working" the capacitors rather hard, heating them up, and decreasing the expected lifetime. In that case, you can either do as they say, or roll the dice and see if a part fails while in use.

It is not clear that you would necessarily notice the failure of a capacitor, unless it has a real problem and fails by splitting the case and blowing bits of oil soaked paper and foil all over the place. But the failure of some capacitors may put added stress on the electronics, increasing the chance of an electronic failure.

It is relatively cheap to replace the capacitors, and may be reasonable insurance against future problems. Particularly in the case of an older unit, for which replacement parts for the electronics are apparently no longer available.

Would like to hear what PP says. I have an early 2004 DPC-A10 that has been used constantly since I got it, only source of 3 phase. Other than making sure the fans are on when it is hot I haven't done anything with it. I looked in my manual and didn't find anything about maintenance or replacing anything.

I was told the line filter canistors are 3 silver cans by the way.

johnoder said:

Now I feel neglectful.

My new in 2005 10HP soldiers on in its 12th year. Never an issue of any description - nor ever a look inside. When it dies, it will be replaced - having fully done what was expected of it.

Annual cost so far 200 bucks

Click to expand...

I think that's been the case for most, just plug it and run it. It definitely owes me nothing, but if for a $100 and 2-3 hours of messing around in there I can get another 5-10yrs out of it and minimize the risk of any other issues, seems worth a try.

johnoder said:

Now I feel neglectful.

My new in 2005 10HP soldiers on in its 12th year. Never an issue of any description - nor ever a look inside. When it dies, it will be replaced - having fully done what was expected of it.

Annual cost so far 200 bucks

Click to expand...

Took that sort of thing - "life cycle cost" - onboard when I ordered a NEW 10 HP. Now that I have two, I do plan to replace the caps on the old blue 10 HP one.

As that has at least to "probability" to make good economic numbers into even better ones, why would I not?

I ended up checking these 3 capacitors in the 10hp unit with a friends fluke289(I want one of those now...), all were at 19.3uf to 19.5uf so pretty much right on for their 20uf spec, just not sure yet why these are 20uf and not 40uf like the manual says. Waiting to hear back. I'll get a 3300uf cap for the board and see about replacing that when I get a bit of time.

A few pictures would tell if your $32 capacitor(s) are worth the money or are common variety types.

They looked like a garden variety capacitor with a bleed resistor. I think an equivalent could be located and purchased for less, I was just quoting the price I got from phase perfect.

I recommend a source like Digikey.com to get replacement capacitors. In addition to voltage and capacitance, you can specify environmental factors such as hour rating at temp which is important in heat generating equipment. Digikey has good prices and fast service. When my Lincoln Mig blew its capacitor bank, Lincoln wanted $500 for 8 capacitors. I got better rated capacitors from digikey in 3 days for $100.

Flail said:

I recommend a source like Digikey.com to get replacement capacitors. In addition to voltage and capacitance, you can specify environmental factors such as hour rating at temp which is important in heat generating equipment. Digikey has good prices and fast service. When my Lincoln Mig blew its capacitor bank, Lincoln wanted $500 for 8 capacitors. I got better rated capacitors from digikey in 3 days for $100.

Click to expand...

probably true for the across-the-line metal case parts.

Less true for board mounted components such as power supply capactors, where several other parameters come into play, including ratings for "ripple current", for "ESR" (equivalent series resistance) and other such more exotic specs.

Those things generally have a direct relation to lifetime, and also can affect how, and even "whether" the unit works. The designers know and have specified proper parts, and the company will supply them. When you choose others, you take a part of the design process onto yourself.

On the caps there will be value, voltage and max temp. Life tends to be around 5000 hours at max temp and way longer at lower temps. That's a very conservative figure. Buy components from Mouser and look ove/join eevblog

EEVblog Electronics Community Forum - Index

where there is real expertise and a very pleasant general attitude. In general, after 10 years or so all higher voltage ( >120V ) caps should go as a matter of course. When they crap they often take out other things , too.

70°C, 20uf, +/-6% 370VAC/B 50/60hz
40/070/21 P2 SH 0744B,
325P206H37M25N4X

Seems made by CSC ?
That's whats on it, a whole lot of numbers, only a few of which mean anything to me. Google doesn't come up with that exact part. A few that look similar but I saw none with the screw tab soldered to the top(not a push on connection), maybe that's added on by PP, or a more specific cap. For now I'll plan on getting them from PP to be sure I get the right thing and should fit right in.

I had no luck today with the 3300uf 80V , 710809(m) one in town, I gotta look a bit further and make sure I order the right one. It's probably discontinued by now so might have to figure what's the closest that will work.

Do you guys have a direct email for Phase perfect? I couldn't find it on their site so I filled the online question thing and sent that off.

That is a Sprague 325P series motor run capacitor. I found a catalog.

COMMONWEALTH SPRAGUE MOTOR RUN CAPACITOR CATALOG - PDF

The part number decodes to

325P.... series number
206........20 uF
H...........6%
37..........370V
M...........base code....1 3/4 diameter (1.875" at top closure) with terminal height 0.468"
25..........2 5/8" tall
N...........tin plate steel
4...........terminal type 4
X...........no terminal options.

The eccol refers to the type of oil filling.