Puzzling Phase Perfect, Martin issue

Hello ..

I wonder if anyone can shed some light on this.

I have a 20hp Phase Perfect Phase converter supplying a 3 phase panel. The panel supplies machines, each has its own dedicated circuit.

There is a newer Martin T-60C sliding Table saw with 24V Digital controls. And a brand new Martin T-45 Planer, also with digital controls. Both have motor brakes.

When the three phase power is turned on, both of these machines natural state is " on " .. the display screens are lit up and the machine is ready to turn the motor on.

When turning on the planer, all is fine. Turn off the planer, and two internal breakers on the slider trip. This is with the slider not being used.

So on advice, I moved the wires on the sliders breaker 2 positions each. Fired up the planer and the slider doesn't trip anymore .. Except when I turn the slider on now, and then turn it off.. The same breakers on the planer trip.


The breakers that trip are AC, not DC .. They are micro breakers. 3A, 480V

I asked Phase Perfect and they suggest its a Martin issue, asked Martin and they said its a phase converter issue.

Does this make sense to anyone ?

First, a few questions:

By "moved the wires on the slider's breaker 2 positions", do you mean you moved the 3-phase branch circuit breaker to a different slot in the distribution panel? Or you swapped two wires on the breaker? Or are you talking about one of the 3A breakers inside the table saw?

Is there any possibility the wires on your dedicated circuits are undersized for the load (or the length of the circuit run)?

How do you have these machines grounded? Are you running an equipment grounding conductor (or properly bonded raceway) back to the PP distribution panel? Using an EGC that runs to a different panel (like your utility supply panel)? Using a local ground?

What do these 3A breakers protect/feed?

The Martin T60C brochure lists 7.5HP (5.5kw), 10HP (7.5kW) and 15HP (11kW) motors. If you have 7.5HP or 10HP motors in your two machines, I would not expect a problem. If you have a 15HP motor in either or both machines, this is a potential problem for running both at the same time. The 20HP PP is rated to start a 20HP motor, and should have no trouble running a 10HP while starting another 10HP. But it might have trouble starting a 15HP motor while running the other machine.

The fact that one machine is popping the breakers in the other machine when you turn the first machine OFF is an important clue. If these machines used DC motors, solenoids or other magnetic devices, there would be a massive voltage spike on turn-off, which requires proper snubbing as part of the machine electrical design. But with AC motors, there is nothing remotely comparable on turn-off to the locked rotor current draw you get at turn-on.

It is still possible that the turn-off of one machine is adversely affecting the PP output, causing the other machine to pop its clogs. If the other machine were basically idle, doing nothing but powering the display, that would be pretty unlikely in the absence of some more serious problem with the machine, or a serious issue with grounding.

Without knowing what those 3A breakers do in these machines, it's hard to make a compelling story around that clue.

PP generates pretty high quality power (sometimes better than the incoming utility supply). So without knowing more detail, I'd be inclined toward "Martin issue".

Thank you for the response.

When I said moving wires, I mean unscrewing the wires from the breaker at the 3 phase panel and shifting them similar to if the 3 phase motor was running backwards. Except I moved all of them.

The electric motor on the T-60C is 7.5hp .. the planer is 10hp .. Both have electronic motor brakes and I believe both cause quite a bit of regenerative power.

These machines are not running at the same time, but the displays are illuminated when there is power to the panel. The 10hp planer is sitting idle with the display showing the height.. motor not running.. Turn the sliding table saw on, then off and on turning it off, the breakers in the planer trip.

You can't run the planer again until you open the electrical cabinet and reset the breakers.

I don't know what the breakers in the saw or the planer do .. I tend to believe the problem is regenerative power from the electric brakes. Phase Perfect says their converters will handle regenerative power, so I'm puzzled.

Right now the only solution is to isolate the machine not being used by turning all power off to it before using the other machine.

The machines are all grounded properly.

RickFisher said:

The machines are all grounded properly.

Click to expand...

You are aware the output of the P-P is (on-edit, thanks JST,) high-leg, (and not corner-grounded) Delta, 120-120-208 above Earth and no Neutral?

And have your load center in a 'transparent' mode, following suit 'delta' connected to the two machines which ALSO have no Neutral AND PE /ground isolated from anything that EXPECTED a Neutral but has none?

If that is problematic, P-P manual sez you'll need a transformer, Delta to Wye, but probably NOT 208 & 120 Wye, even so.

Any "Martin problem" may have been created as a byproduct if that has been overlooked.

Monarchist

I dont really understand what your saying, but get the feeling you know what the problem is .. Sorry for my lack of understanding.

I have 5 machines hooked up to the 3 phase panel. The PP is between the single phase and 3 phase panels. As you said, there is no neutral.

The other 3 phase machines are a 4 hp Jointer, 4hp sander and a 12hp Wide Belt sander. All work fine. The only troublesome machines are these two Martin Machines.

The Jointer has an electronic brake as well, but the motor is way smaller than the Martin Machines.

Do you think their not grounded right ?

The 3a breakers are 480v and you are running 240? Are they sized right? Also make sure that when you changed the wires at the panel breaker, that the 208 leg doesn't go into the internal transformer. Dave

RickFisher said:

Monarchist

I dont really understand what your saying, but get the feeling you know what the problem is .. Sorry for my lack of understanding.

I have 5 machines hooked up to the 3 phase panel. The PP is between the single phase and 3 phase panels. As you said, there is no neutral.

The other 3 phase machines are a 4 hp Jointer, 4hp sander and a 12hp Wide Belt sander. All work fine. The only troublesome machines are these two Martin Machines.

The Jointer has an electronic brake as well, but the motor is way smaller than the Martin Machines.

Do you think their not grounded right ?

Click to expand...

I would not even presume to guess any further than I have already... UNTIL.. I had recorded them 'in the act' on an Oscilloscope that HAD the ability to save the wave-forms and their sequence of events.

I have two that can do that.

If you do not even have ANY 'scope, it may be a long time guessing and fiddling at what one of those could SHOW you in a New York Minute.

That's why I have never been without at least one 'scope since before I was old enough to need to shave.

Amortized over half a century-plus, service lives of ten, twenty, 40 years, replaced for nicer features, not failure, they are literally "cheaper than dirt".

Price 'potting soil' sourced at the usual suspects and calculate its 'service life' in months or years, not decades, if you doubt that last part.



Go and get a 'scope on it. MAKE SURE YOU HAVE 'PROBES' KNOWN-SAFE ABOVE 300 V!!!

You will find spikes to 1200V and more. 2000 to 3000 V or better probes are a good investment, even when they cost more than the scope itself.

Do any of the machines get a neutral wired to them? I presume not, it is usually not done. And, since the machines work right, presumably they are all wired up with power that they can use correctly.

Might any of these breakers that open be some sort of Ground Fault Interrupter? Those are notorious for being sensitive to spikes and noise on the power line, and some machines do have them. If they are, those also can become over-sensitive as they age.

Does this same thing happen if other machines are in use at the time? Or is it ONLY when a single machine is in use, and is turned off?

Monarchist said:

You are aware the output of the P-P is corner-grounded Delta, 120 -120- 208 above Earth and no Neutral? And have your load center in a 'transparent' mode, following suit 'delta' connected to the two machines which ALSO have no Neutral AND PE /ground isolated from anything that EXPECTED a Neutral but has none?

If that is problematic, P-P manual sez you'll need a transformer, Delta to Wye, but probably NOT 208 & 120 Wye, even so.

Any "Martin problem" may have been created as a byproduct if that has been overlooked.

Click to expand...

Actually. that is NOT "corner grounded", but is instead the same basic thing as "high leg" or "wild leg" 3 phase power, aka "lighting tap 3 phase". It's pretty common, and does not normally cause issues. The usual output from a P-P should be quite clean, and free of spikes etc from the P-P itself.

Other devices may cause spikes. And the output filters can make spikes worse in some cases

The P-P only creates the high leg, similar to what an RPC does. The actual wired neutral stays at the same electrical point on the 240 input wiring, so it cannot be used for a 3 phase neutral.

The controls on the machines are 24V .. so in my limited knowledge, I would think a neutral wasn't needed. The machines have Star Delta as well. So I have so far believed that the problem is the brakes on bigger motors dumping regen power into the panel and that power going to the machines rather than back to the grid ..

RickFisher said:

The controls on the machines are 24V .. so in my limited knowledge, I would think a neutral wasn't needed. The machines have Star Delta as well. So I have so far believed that the problem is the brakes on bigger motors dumping regen power into the panel and that power going to the machines rather than back to the grid ..

Click to expand...

'Scope may tell you "WHAT", even "WHY", but that is not yet a fix.

On principle, as they are proven problematic, for any reason or no reason, IF I had no need of either machine to keep its controls active to retain a setting, offset, or such. I'd simply put an inexpensive rotary, lockable, 'disconnect' inline with each and make it a practice to de-power them, entire, when not in active use.

IF, I also had need of the controls being kept "alive" and holding settings, I'd find a way to sever those at on-machine source power, then provide 'conditioned' power from a source independent of the P-P so the disconnect of drive motor(s) affected them not.

RickFisher said:

The controls on the machines are 24V .. so in my limited knowledge, I would think a neutral wasn't needed. The machines have Star Delta as well. So I have so far believed that the problem is the brakes on bigger motors dumping regen power into the panel and that power going to the machines rather than back to the grid ..

Click to expand...

Repeating the other questions.....

Might any of these breakers that open be some sort of Ground Fault Interrupter? Those are notorious for being sensitive to spikes and noise on the power line, and some machines do have them. If they are, those also can become over-sensitive as they age.

Does this same thing happen if other machines are in use at the time? Or is it ONLY when a single machine is in use, and is turned off?

I believe these breakers protect the contents of the electrical box, the machine has electrically driven parts. The machines could be run at the same time, but I never have.

This problem is being caused by Regen power from the brakes on the electric motors. Its creating a power surge which is going through the panel and to the other machines which are connected.

RickFisher said:

This problem is being caused by Regen power from the brakes on the electric motors. Its creating a power surge which is going through the panel and to the other machines which are connected.

Click to expand...

It COULD be.

But you've not yet booked hard evidence. World is full of gear that does that without tripping breakers.

Generally, I tend to agree that it is a problem for the machine vendor (Martin), and not anything much to do with the Phase Perfect. Something in the Martin machines is way too sensitive.

If "rotating" the wires to the table saw helped it, did you try the same thing with the planer?

RickFisher said:

I believe these breakers protect the contents of the electrical box, the machine has electrically driven parts. The machines could be run at the same time, but I never have.

This problem is being caused by Regen power from the brakes on the electric motors. Its creating a power surge which is going through the panel and to the other machines which are connected.

Click to expand...

I sure hate to say it this way, but that sounds like the sort of suggestion a guy who does not want his particular piece of equipment blamed for some fault might make. It's kinda full of techie buzzwords, doesn't really say much, and is very weak on just how that breaker opening could actually occur.

You seem to be suggesting it is some form of voltage spike. What you mean by a "power surge" I cannot be sure of..... But in general "power surges" are not created by small stuff like machine brakes. SPIKES can be, but spikes tend not to open breakers, they just don't usually have the available energy. The ONE type of breaker that can easily open for a spike, is one that either is, or incorporates, a GFCI. Those ARE sometimes used in machines.

The point of other machines being on, is that other machines drawing power often tend to soak up voltage disturbances, or damp them down enough that they are not a problem. If that fixed the issue, then the idea of some voltage issue is supported. If it had no effect, we'd maybe not know anything from the test.

The phase perfect DOES handle regenerative power.... but spikes are NOT regenerative power, they are just noise on the power line, and that probably will not get through the filters on the P-P output in the first place, so even if the P-P could do something about the noise spikes, it would never "see them".

When you moved the wires around, you may have moved the sensitive wires to the direct incoming power lines, which may have changed the way they react to noise.. The P-P only makes one output, the output on the third wire, the "generated leg" it is sometimes called. The other two just come through fairly directly, although I suspect they are filtered to some degree.

If it were me, I think I would get a basic line filter rated for the line voltage, and put it on the power line going to the machine in question. Or I might put some low microfarad value capacitors from line-to-line at the machine. That would tend to reduce "voltage spikes", and it might keep the machine from having the problem.

I can't offer much help other than an anecdote involving a slightly similar situation. I also feed my shop off a 20hp Phase Perfect with several Martin machines, wide belt and bandsaw. At one point when I powered up the bandsaw the shaper would shut down, none of the other machines were affected. I don't have the expertise to explain or know why that was occurring, but the root of the problem was a faulty bandsaw switch. When I replaced the faulty component in the switch I didn't have any more issues.

PJD said:

I can't offer much help other than an anecdote involving a slightly similar situation. I also feed my shop off a 20hp Phase Perfect with several Martin machines, wide belt and bandsaw. At one point when I powered up the bandsaw the shaper would shut down, none of the other machines were affected. I don't have the expertise to explain or know why that was occurring, but the root of the problem was a faulty bandsaw switch. When I replaced the faulty component in the switch I didn't have any more issues.

Click to expand...

This may be highly relevant.

A faulty switch may produce a bunch of noise spikes as it opens or closes. If a machine, such as the Martin stuff, is sensitive to noise spikes, that will probably cause a problem.

Now, WHY the Martin equipment is so extra sensitive that it actually opens breakers, etc if there is power line noise...... That I do not know, although I can guess.

I am more confident now in suggesting some basic line filters on the lines going to the Martin equipment. They may not have included sufficient filtering (if they put in any). If you can keep noise spikes out of the Martin products, you should cut the problem.

Since the equipment apparently runs, it does not seem to be anything related to the Phase Perfect. The issue as I understand it has been that turning off (or on?) other equipment trips off the breakers in one or more of the Martin products.

That appears, without any further info, to be due to the Martin equipment being over-sensitive. In other words, a Martin problem, not a P-P problem. And, now we have a second person with a similar experience as confirmation.

I agree with JST that this has nothing to do with the Phase Perfect. The converter is feeding your sub panel and the electrical issue is isolated between the two circuits feeding the machines through the sub panel. Doesn't make sense to me why this would have anything to do with the converter.

I know my shaper is particularly sensitive and had to move two terminals on the transformer in the machine to a higher voltage setting to accommodate a voltage issue that was creating error codes on the computer. I also have the T45 and a 2012 T60 with touchscreen controls and neither was affected by the faulty switch in the bandsaw. Perhaps it's a coincidence and irrelevant, but the breaker in my panel feeding the bandsaw was directly above the breaker feeding the shaper.

It may be difficult to diagnose exactly what electrical component is creating the issue and perhaps I'm completely off base from the actual problem, but you might want to talk with Al at Martin and see if you can't adjust/increase some of the voltage settings in the machines. Might be irrelevant, but it's a pretty quick adjustment and it did solve the occasional voltage spikes that were setting off error codes on my shaper.