What's new
What's new

Question about switching contactors for a lathe

conant

Stainless
Joined
May 13, 2013
Location
Shasta County, Ca. USA
I purchased a lathe and ran all motor functions, forward, reverse and stop. All functions worked as they should. Lathe was disconnected and moved to my shop.
There are 4 wires going through a short section of conduit in to the contactor relays, 3 heavy 8 gauge wires that are black for the 3 legs of the 3 phase power, and a single white 10 gauge wires.
I assume this is the ground wire. It is connected to the bottom rear of one of the contactors with a wire jumping over to a similar lug on the other contactor.
I checked for continuity from those wires to the machine casting and there is none.
Should there be a seperate wire for the machine ground itself?
I have a licensed industrial electrician coming back to finish off the job, I am just curious.
Since the 3 phase power source is a RPC and my switching relays are 120 volts that is connected to one leg of the incoming I know to NOT connect the generated leg to that incoming lead.
Thanks
 
Sometimes lathes have a low voltage control transformer that needs the White 'neutral" wire.

And even though this wire may be connected to earth in the service panel, ALL MACHINES SHOULD HAVE A DEDICATED GROUND.
A green wire. ;-0
 
Okay. Makes sense. So I should run a seperate wire for machine ground even though they would both connect to the same buss bar in the panel?
Can I simply connect the wire to the "neutral" wire in the relay box?
 
It will make you feel so good every time you see it. And is someone else looks at it, YOU will appear so responsible!
 
It will make you feel so good every time you see it. And is someone else looks at it, YOU will appear so responsible!

I did some more reading on the internet regarding the difference between neutral wire and ground wire.
Best write up I found is that the neutral wire is a return path to the service line and power companies generally ground it at transformer substations.
In the service panel at your home or shop is a neutral bus bar that is grounded right to the inside of the box just as the ground wire bus bar is also grounded to the inside of the box. Then there is a wire to earth ground at your building.
If I understand correctly, the purpose of neutral is a return path to service and earth ground is what protects from you becoming the path of least resistance to ground.
In the case of the wiring to my machine, the leads were 1, 2, 3 and neutral going to the contactor but not a machine ground. If a wire ever chafed or for whatever reason made contact with the machine it would only have one path to ground: me or the next person who touched it.
 
Neutral is always an undisturbed/isolated/zero line ground back to the main panel. If every RPC had a GFCI breaker more people would understand. I think at the introduction of GFCI breaker's codes started to change.
 
The 3 phase panel I am using has only one bus bar for ground wires. My single phase panel sets right next to the 3 phase panel and has a bar for ground and a bar for neutral, both bars are grounded to the backside of the service box.
Where should I hook the white neutral wire from my machine?
 
Should I just hook the neutral wire to the ground bus bar in the 3 phase panel or back over to the neutral bar in my single phase box.
I might be over thinking this but it seems like everything in either box is going to the service panel ground anyway.
 
Is your single phase panel a sub panel or the main panel.

To be safe always try to have seperate busses for each function.

Your 3 phase if delta has no neutral.

White is neutral so connect it to a neutral buss.


But what is the function of your white wire?

It sounds like it may have been a safety ground that has come loose from the machine.

If your machine is 3 phase but contactor controlled then maybe contactor are single phase and the white wire is a neutral.

Double check all of the wiring to see what you need then wire it correctly.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337Z using Tapatalk
 
The white wire is connected to the switch relays. The coil is 120 volt. One leg of the 3 phase is used for the switch circuit. The machine is wired just as it was when last ran where I purchased it.
I suppose I could install a separate bus bar for neutral. Basically it was previously wire with 3 black wires ran to it along with a green.
What confuses me is my main panel, the single phase, has a bus for each the neutral and ground but both are grounded to the inside of the box essentially making either bus a ground.
 
On the single phase panel it may be correct if and only if it is the main panel ( meter is connected to it).

If it us a sub panel it is wrong and usually there is just a tie bar that connects them.

If you have 120 vac single phase contactor it is not wired very well.

Suggest getting a 14 X 3 cord and using it for your contactor and controls.

Add a green wire same size as main power as safety ground from frame to ground.

on our BP ww have a cord from a big rig trailer as a main cord (5 wires or so)

We use old style dryer plugs for almost all 240 vac connections and we used a large housing to allow a standard short 120 vac plug to be attached to other cord inside 240 plug.

Next to the 240 ac plug is a 120 vac outlet.

BP has a box containing the VFD and 120 outlets for DRO and lighting.

A 3 phase disconnect switches the 240 mains and single hot for the 120 ac circuits.

2 plugs with proper wire size with a single main switch and safety ground.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337Z using Tapatalk
 
Differences of Neutral and Ground

To try and simplify the differences between neutral wire and ground wire.

First off they should never be used interchangeably for any machine hookup, regardless of it appearing that they both connect back to the same place.

Second the colors should never be used interchangeably either. White or Gray for neutrals only. Green or bare for ground.

They do go back to the same point in the supply system but for entirely different reasons.

The Neutral is intended for normal current flow to power the load, expected operating current from the connected device. It is always insulated from ground, because it is expected to have current flowing and therefore expected to have some voltage (shock) potential as a condition of normal operation.

The ground on the other hand is NOT intended for normal current flow. It's function is intended for current flow ONLY when there is a fault (short circuit) or an abnormal leakage of the connected device. It should never have current flowing on it as a normal condition.

The ground serves two basic functions.
First is to provide a solidly connected path back to the source to conduct large fault (short circuit) currents, in order to trip off the circuit protection as soon as possible.
Second is to reduce or eliminate the voltage difference (shock potential) from the connected device and any other nearby conductive object including the earth.

To use the ground and neutral interchangeably will defeat the intended purpose of the system and therefore decrease the overall safety of the system as well as increase the shock and electrocution hazard of the system.

In the above case given (OP), a device requiring 3Φ with a neutral and ground connection for it's supply circuit, and a RPC providing the 3Φ source. The basic RPC has no neutral connection and the only true neutral is from the 1Φ source panel supplying the RPC system.

The ground of the 1Φ supply panel and the RPC output are the same and should be solidly connected together, as well as the ground from the connected device. This comprises the safety part of the system.

The insulated neutral of the connected device should only connect to the to the true neutral bar of the 1Φ source. Since the RPC fed panel has no true neutral, it must be connected to the neutral bar of the 1Φ panel supplying the RPC.

Another (better) way of accomplishing the same thing would be to provide a true neutral bar in the 3Φ RPC output sub-panel. The 3Φ sub-panel most likely has an insulated neutral bar as standard. But it's likely being used as a ground bar instead, and bonded (solidly connected) to the enclosure and the supplying 1Φ panel system ground.

To convert it back to a true neutral bar, remove all ground (bonding) connections to the panel enclosure and any branch circuit grounds. Connect a insulated white neutral wire from the 3Φ neutral bar to the 1Φ source panel neutral bar.

Then you would add a separate ground bar to the 3Φ RPC fed panel, mounted directly to the enclosure, and bonded to the enclosure through its mounting means. The 1Φ panel system ground and the 3Φ RPC panel grounds then must be solidly bonded together. This could be done through a dedicated ground wire or metal conduit connections between the two panels. Then connect all of the previously removed branch circuit grounds to your newly installed dedicated ground bar in the 3Φ panel.

The way you received the lathe was correct in that it had a white wire for the neutral connection. But either it lacked a ground connection, used the neutral and ground interchangeably (bad) or had an approved metal conduit connection acting as the grounding connection.

So to summarize the lathe circuit requires 5 wires not the 4 that it originally came with or 4 wires and an approved (listed) metal conduit grounding connection.

SAF Ω
 
Thanks SAF. I will instal a ground bus in my 3 phase panel and wire the existing bus bar that is in it only for the neutral. Disconnecting the lug to case for the neutral bar in my 3 phase box.
Since my neutral bar in my single phase panel is grounded to the case by a removable lug, I will disconnect that and then my neutral bar will be insulated and strictly a neutral return to the power source.
I think that is correct from what you tell me.
 
You got the 3Φ panel part right.

The 1Φ panel part depends on the actual installation circumstances..

If the 1Φ panel is your main service entrance panel from the utility (1st main disconnect) DO NOT remove the bonding jumper between the neutral bar and the grounding bar or enclosure. The first disconnect from the utility is the only place the neutral and ground should be bonded together. Anything downstream from there should be kept separated

If the 1Φ panel feeding the RPC is a sub-panel downstream from the main service disconnect, as in a outbuilding panel, it should be kept separated. Your 3Φ panel is just another sub-panel downstream of your main service disconnect.

SAF Ω
 








 
Back
Top