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Thread: 220 1 phase reversing switch

  1. #1
    mirage100 is offline Plastic
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    Default 220 1 phase reversing switch

    Can anyone tell me how to wire up a 3 button reversing switch . It has Forward ,reverse and a stop button . It is a Siemens 50MA3KLE switch. I got it from McMaster Carr. I called Siemens and ask for a diagram but they were no help .Thanks Mirage

  2. #2
    atomarc is offline Stainless
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    Mirage,

    I believe this is a 3 button, momentary pushbutton setup which would require contactors in any motor starting situation, single phase or 3 phase.

    Unless you have a enclosure with a reversing mag in it, this pushbutton station will do you no good, it's the wrong item for a maintained application.

    Stuart

  3. #3
    mirage100 is offline Plastic
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    I thought I had the wrong switch . Can you tell me what I need

  4. #4
    atomarc is offline Stainless
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    Mirage,

    I can't give you a specific part number but may be able to head you in the right direction. I think the easiest method would be to use a standard drum switch but if you could find a toggle switch rated for the appropriate ampacity and HP it might work.

    I think drum switches work great. They have a comfortable handle for smooth actuation, they are usually adequately HP rated and seem plentiful on sites like eBay.

    Whatever you get it must be a maintained type switch and have enough poles to switch the proper motor leads to achieve reversal. I hope this helps.

    Stuart

  5. #5
    mirage100 is offline Plastic
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    The motor I have is a 5 hp single phase with external capacitors .It has two start and one run capacitors and when I say external I mean not on the motor. The motor has 6 wiires coming out of it . Three wires go to capacitors 2 wires go to L2 and one wire goes to L1

  6. #6
    n2666s is offline Aluminum
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    Default drum switch non-reversing use?

    been following this thread and have a similar problem bought a momentary switch which of course will not work <grrrr>
    I have an old probably non reversing 220V Century motor on my Monarch Jr.lathe from the 20s; my old switch is scary and sparks <whoops> but motor runs smooth as silk;
    3 questions;
    first; how can I be sure it is a non reversing motor? would like to be able to use a reversing drum switch.
    second; can I use a furnas type drum switch as a off on switch w/o the reversing component?
    3rd. any sources for heavy duty push button industrial type continuous switches?;have drawn blanks at Mcmaster C. and flea bay and a bit leery of exposed toggle switches
    Thanks in advance;
    Lou

    Quote Originally Posted by atomarc View Post
    Mirage,

    I can't give you a specific part number but may be able to head you in the right direction. I think the easiest method would be to use a standard drum switch but if you could find a toggle switch rated for the appropriate ampacity and HP it might work.

    I think drum switches work great. They have a comfortable handle for smooth actuation, they are usually adequately HP rated and seem plentiful on sites like eBay.

    Whatever you get it must be a maintained type switch and have enough poles to switch the proper motor leads to achieve reversal. I hope this helps.

    Stuart

  7. #7
    Jraef's Avatar
    Jraef is offline Stainless
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    Some issues:

    1) One problem with 1 phase motors as opposed to 3 phase is that they are not all the same, there are several methods of making 1 phase motors work. Most (but not all) 1 phase motors that are cap-start/cap-run, or cap-start/induction run, or split phase can be reversed because you typically have the wires for the caps and/or start windings separated from the run winding wires. Some PSC (Permanent Split Capacitor) 1 phase motors don't provide the separation of the wires, so you can't reverse them. For the most part PSC motors aren't used in machine tools so they aren't going to be a problem. But depending on the manufacturer's willingness to allow access to connections, you may not be able to reverse every 1 phase motor.

    2) You cannot use momentary buttons to directly change directions in motors. Momentary buttons control contactors, and the CONTACTORS change the power wiring to reverse the motor.

    3) Maintained contact push buttons are now rare. They were considered dangerous because they could be too easily misapplied in place of momentary push buttons and they looked exactly the same. Most mfrs have dropped the concept.

    4) Drum switches are the preferred method to accomplish manual reversing. This thread provides excellent information on reversing 1 phase motors with a drum switch.
    Wiring a single phase motor to drum switch

    5) When Siemens fought Furnas 20+ years ago, they dumped off the Drum Switch products and sold the rights to Hubbell Industrial Controls but if you call Siemens now, there are no longer any employees left that know this. HIC now makes and sells them and still use the Furnas name, if you download the catalog they are a good source of wiring diagrams. Hubbell Industrial Controls :: Furnas Brand Class 58 Drum Switch - Type 4258
    monoblanco likes this.

  8. #8
    n2666s is offline Aluminum
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    Unhappy puzzled

    Jraef......thanks very much;still puzzled though about how to go from here
    Quote Originally Posted by Jraef View Post
    Some issues:

    1) One problem with 1 phase motors as opposed to 3 phase is that they are not all the same, there are several methods of making 1 phase motors work. Most (but not all) 1 phase motors that are cap-start/cap-run, or cap-start/induction run, or split phase can be reversed because you typically have the wires for the caps and/or start windings separated from the run winding wires. Some PSC (Permanent Split Capacitor) 1 phase motors don't provide the separation of the wires, so you can't reverse them. For the most part PSC motors aren't used in machine tools so they aren't going to be a problem. But depending on the manufacturer's willingness to allow access to connections, you may not be able to reverse every 1 phase motor.
    1)b below
    2) You cannot use momentary buttons to directly change directions in motors. Momentary buttons control contactors, and the CONTACTORS change the power wiring to reverse the motor.
    2)b below
    3) Maintained contact push buttons are now rare. They were considered dangerous because they could be too easily misapplied in place of momentary push buttons and they looked exactly the same. Most mfrs have dropped the concept.
    3)b below
    4) Drum switches are the preferred method to accomplish manual reversing. This thread provides excellent information on reversing 1 phase motors with a drum switch.
    Wiring a single phase motor to drum switch
    4)b below
    5) When Siemens fought Furnas 20+ years ago, they dumped off the Drum Switch products and sold the rights to Hubbell Industrial Controls but if you call Siemens now, there are no longer any employees left that know this. HIC now makes and sells them and still use the Furnas name, if you download the catalog they are a good source of wiring diagrams. Hubbell Industrial Controls :: Furnas Brand Class 58 Drum Switch - Type 4258
    1)b think what I have on the lathe is a "split phase" electric motor; it is very heavy old cast iron "7M" case Century brand and does not have capacitor "bumps" but it runs smoother than any others I have. would like to continue to use it with a "reverse drum switch"+ i already have it.
    2(b yep; found this out the hard way; momentary buttons will not work <grrrrr>
    3)b have 3 phase Linley Milling machine that has this set up where the maintained contact push button feeds the drum switch;no problems and very reliable till NOW.
    4)b great resource article; missed it when I did "search" asked the wrong question
    5)b thanks again for this resource

    Lou
    Last edited by n2666s; 03-06-2011 at 11:22 AM. Reason: the quote was not in place

  9. #9
    n2666s is offline Aluminum
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    OK; still beating my head against this problem; wired up the Drum Switch to the Century Motor according to manufacturers specs and sketch inside drum switch; #1 for split phase single phase motors with 4 wires at upper left thumbnail....runs perfectly in Forward BUT when reversed it pops the breaker every time <grrrrrrr> the Century has 4 wires coming out BUT NO diagrams guess the old timers when this was made over 90 years ago were a lots smarter than I am!....is this a non reversable motor or am I just to dumb and missing something front of my eyes?.............appreciate any advice and input..........Lou
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails drum-switch-wiring-diagram.jpg   img_0158-wires-century-220.jpg   img_0149-century-single-phase-220.jpg  

  10. #10
    J.R. Williams is offline Hot Rolled
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    Default Motor

    You have a real antique. Check the internals inside to see if you have a 'repulsion start-induction run' motor. They will have a commutator and brushes with the brush holder rotated to reverse direction. They were popular before the capacitor style was built.
    JRW

  11. #11
    S_W_Bausch is offline Diamond
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    is this a non reversable motor or....

    My best answer is a rude question:

    Does the dataplate say "Reversing", or "Reversible", or "to reverse rotation"?



    Of course, no dataplate says "Cheap Chinese", but some are....

    An engineer might be able to pull a proverbial rabbit out a hat, but I suggest abandoning plans to reverse any single phase motor, if the dataplate doesn't indicate "Reversing",

  12. #12
    jim rozen is offline Diamond
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    It's probably repulsion inducton based on the absence of a start capacitor that I can
    see. There's probaby a brush shifter inside the non-shaft end that permits reversing,
    you MUST stop the motor and unpower it to do that.

    It will look something like this:



    The two hash markes shown line up to a lever sort it item to get fwd and rev, and
    the trick to realize this is how a motor like this operates, is the cover opens up
    simply by slacking one screw and flipping it out of the way.



    While your drum switch diagram shows a configuration for repulsion induction, some
    of these motors with four wires are dual voltage, rather than reversible. In my
    case the motor shown has the four wires connected as two pairs for low voltage,
    and for high voltage it would two tied together and insulated, the other two being
    the incoming line then.

    If you tried to wire my motor up according to the drum switch diagram, I suspect
    it would behave as yours does - runs in one direction, will pop a breaker in the
    other.

  13. #13
    n2666s is offline Aluminum
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    yep; think you are right found an example online as a repulsion induction motor.....hmmmmm
    Lou

    Quote Originally Posted by J.R. Williams View Post
    You have a real antique. Check the internals inside to see if you have a 'repulsion start-induction run' motor. They will have a commutator and brushes with the brush holder rotated to reverse direction. They were popular before the capacitor style was built.
    JRW

  14. #14
    n2666s is offline Aluminum
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    Unhappy

    yep; looked to see if it was a reversing motor and did include pix but the brass plate is way to shiny to see anything in the pix....but no mention of reversing or non reversing; had thought about going to another motor BUT have this one that came originally with the lathe and it runs smoother than any other that I have + it is payed for

    Lou

    Quote Originally Posted by S_W_Bausch View Post
    My best answer is a rude question:

    Does the dataplate say "Reversing", or "Reversible", or "to reverse rotation"?



    Of course, no dataplate says "Cheap Chinese", but some are....

    An engineer might be able to pull a proverbial rabbit out a hat, but I suggest abandoning plans to reverse any single phase motor, if the dataplate doesn't indicate "Reversing",

  15. #15
    n2666s is offline Aluminum
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    Jim, thanks for the info......yes; the 4 wires are bundled in one pair other two are separate so I guess that is how they got to 220 volts.............some fellow on u-tube is showing how he can reverse one of these motors by sticking his fingers and pushing the brushes while the motor is running;a bit too scary for my coronaries!!;have way too much respect for these machines after I saw what happened after a fellow's leather apron get caught in one and pulled him nearly inside out few years ago!
    Lou

    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    It's probably repulsion inducton based on the absence of a start capacitor that I can
    see. There's probaby a brush shifter inside the non-shaft end that permits reversing,
    you MUST stop the motor and unpower it to do that.

    It will look something like this:



    The two hash markes shown line up to a lever sort it item to get fwd and rev, and
    the trick to realize this is how a motor like this operates, is the cover opens up
    simply by slacking one screw and flipping it out of the way.



    While your drum switch diagram shows a configuration for repulsion induction, some
    of these motors with four wires are dual voltage, rather than reversible. In my
    case the motor shown has the four wires connected as two pairs for low voltage,
    and for high voltage it would two tied together and insulated, the other two being
    the incoming line then.

    If you tried to wire my motor up according to the drum switch diagram, I suspect
    it would behave as yours does - runs in one direction, will pop a breaker in the
    other.
    Last edited by n2666s; 03-06-2011 at 01:59 PM. Reason: pix already posted

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