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  1. #1
    oscer's Avatar
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    Default clausing colchester 5 hp 2 speed motor vfd

    I recently bought a clausing lathe with a 5 hp 2 speed 3 phase motor. I'd like to run it with a vfd and use the drum switch and on off lever to start/ stop and reverse it, a friend of mine told me this was not the safe way to go and that I should use only momentary switches for the control circuit of the vfd. I'm sure I saw a wiring diagram somewhere that showed maintained switches operating the lathe through a vfd. The only down side I can see is if you turn off the machine with the drum switch and later set it for forward or reverse without switching off the start / stop switch it would start up, maybe unexpectedly. So I think maybe the solution is to prevent it from being shut off by the drum switch which is doable if I'm remembering the schematic corectly. As far as the 2 speed motor is concerned I was thinking I'd use only the high speed. Any advise welcome and also recommendations for a 5hp vfd. Thanks oscer

  2. #2
    toolnut is offline Stainless
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    You are correct with your plan. There is no danger using the maintained switches and VFD manual show both maintained and momentary switches in their wiring instructions.

    Wire the two speed motor for the high speed and you have the same performance as if connected to utility three phase.
    Slow the VFD to 50% output (30 hz) and you will have the same performance as the orginal two speed motor low speed. The speed and torque will be the same as Colchester used a constant torque motor.

    The get the orginal wiring diagram so you know what you are dealing with and do a lot of planning. I have a 13" Colchester and have been looking at this but have not figured out exactly how to do it as I got started on other projects.
    Basically: wire the VFD directly to the motor then figure out how to use the drum switch to control the VFD Start FWD and START REV. You can install a potentiometer for speed control and just adjust it as needed. The orginal starter will not be used.

    Bruce

  3. #3
    toolnut is offline Stainless
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    Found a 13" round head colchester wiring diagram on line. http://www.chudov.com/projects/Claus...the-Manual.pdf

    Check to see if this matches your lathe. It is very much like the diagram for my flat head colchester 13".

    I am going to check my lathe tonight to be sure I understand how the 2 speed reversing drum switch works. I think I know how to connect it but prefer to check it against mine before I post a connection diagram.

    Do you have a coolant pump? If so, it will need to be accomadated but should be easy to do.

    Bruce

  4. #4
    oscer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toolnut View Post
    Found a 13" round head colchester wiring diagram on line. http://www.chudov.com/projects/Claus...the-Manual.pdf

    Check to see if this matches your lathe. It is very much like the diagram for my flat head colchester 13".

    I am going to check my lathe tonight to be sure I understand how the 2 speed reversing drum switch works. I think I know how to connect it but prefer to check it against mine before I post a connection diagram.

    Do you have a coolant pump? If so, it will need to be accomadated but should be easy to do.

    Bruce
    Thanks Bruce, I,m having trouble finding a VFD that will run a 5HP motor with single phase input. I dont have a coolant pump. I think I'll use the motor starter to power up the inverter, by doing this if there is a power failure the lathe will not start when the power comes back on.

  5. #5
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    Shadon is offline Hot Rolled
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    Typically a drum switch is a 3 pole unit, you would only need to use 1 of the 3 poles to start and stop the vfd, as far as speed control goes, a 10K pot can be used or 2 momentary pushbuttons with the MOP control programed accordingly.

    And yes, you should hard wire it for high speed and let the vfd do the rest.

  6. #6
    abarnsley is offline Titanium
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    Many larger 3 phase in drives can be derated, and run at 5 hp with single phase input..

    The VFD can be programmed to either require reset on power outage, or auto restart (not recommended).

    Don't use the motor starter.. It is an old mechanical device.. Like the hand crank on a Model T.

    All that is needed is an input line disconnect/breaker for input circuit protection/machine lockout.

    The VFD also provides full motor overload protection. Drive will just stop motor upon overload. Flick switch off and on again, and you are ready to go. No need for heater to cool...

    Coolant pump can be run with a cheap static converter.

  7. #7
    toolnut is offline Stainless
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    Oscer,

    Did the manual, that I posted a link to, have a wiring diagram that looks like your machine?

    As already mentioned, many 10 hp 3 phase VFDs will run on single phase and will effectively be a 5 hp VFD because you can not put in as much power with a single phase supply. The trick is finding one that will work. Most Asian models will run on single phase and some even say as much in the manual. I know ABB ACS350 and probably the newer ACS355 will run on single phase. I have operated Toshiba S7s and Hitachi L100s from single phase by installing a jumper between L2 and L3. The ABB models do not require the jumper. I also know most Square D Altivar models will run on single phase and their manuals mention this so check the manual before spending your money. I also have an LG and two Reliance SP500s on single phase with no jumpers. SOME Allen Bradly models will also run on single phase, I think the 1336S is one of them but check the manual to be sure. I buy my VFDs as new old stock from online auctions.

    Bruce

  8. #8
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    mike_kilroy is offline Stainless
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    Oscer, I pm'ed u a couple days ago with part number choices from Hitachi, all of which will run on 1phase input (L1 and L3 so no jumper needed from L2-L3).

    You do not need to double the Hitachi x200 or WJ200 size for 1ph; the next larger unit (7.5hp) will run your 5hp motor at full ratings w/o being overloaded in anyway. So if you opt to buy new you can save a little money.

  9. #9
    oscer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toolnut View Post
    Oscer,

    Did the manual, that I posted a link to, have a wiring diagram that looks like your machine?

    As already mentioned, many 10 hp 3 phase VFDs will run on single phase and will effectively be a 5 hp VFD because you can not put in as much power with a single phase supply. The trick is finding one that will work. Most Asian models will run on single phase and some even say as much in the manual. I know ABB ACS350 and probably the newer ACS355 will run on single phase. I have operated Toshiba S7s and Hitachi L100s from single phase by installing a jumper between L2 and L3. The ABB models do not require the jumper. I also know most Square D Altivar models will run on single phase and their manuals mention this so check the manual before spending your money. I also have an LG and two Reliance SP500s on single phase with no jumpers. SOME Allen Bradly models will also run on single phase, I think the 1336S is one of them but check the manual to be sure. I buy my VFDs as new old stock from online auctions.

    Bruce

    Toolnut, I didn't trace every wire to be sure but that looks like the same wiring diagram that is in my manual.
    I e-mailed Wolf something or other on friday and I'm still waiting for them to get back to me. they did send me the manual I first requested, the Hitachi 200 series, but it looked like it required 3 ph input.

  10. #10
    oscer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike_kilroy View Post
    Oscer, I pm'ed u a couple days ago with part number choices from Hitachi, all of which will run on 1phase input (L1 and L3 so no jumper needed from L2-L3).

    You do not need to double the Hitachi x200 or WJ200 size for 1ph; the next larger unit (7.5hp) will run your 5hp motor at full ratings w/o being overloaded in anyway. So if you opt to buy new you can save a little money.
    Thanks Mike I didn't see the pm I'll check it out.

  11. #11
    toolnut is offline Stainless
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    Oscer,

    I think I have figured out how to connect the drum switch to the VFD such that the controls will work as orginal.
    I will not be using the mag starter and will be installing a 30 amp, fused disconnect on the wall behind the lathe and using it to power up the VFD.
    The orginal A-B Bul. 801 limit switch will be used to start and stop the VFD
    The drum switch will be used to control the VFD for Forward / Reverse and to select two preset speeds (30 hz for low and 60 hz or high).
    The motor will be connected for HIGH speed only.
    This will provide the same speeds and torque as the orginal hookup did.

    To use the lathe, I will turn on the disconect--the VFD powers up.
    I set the drum switch to the speed and direction I want to use (Forward Low for example) and this causes the VFD to select the 30 hz present speed in the Forward direction.
    I raise the START lever and the lathe runs in forward low. The other speeds will work accordingly.
    When I am finished, I will STOP the lathe and turn of the disconnect to remove power from the VFD.
    I have connection diagrams drawn but have not made a list of the program steps for the VFD. I want to connect and test all this before I post the diagrams so I hope you have not given up on the idea.
    I will need to know the VFD brand and model you decide to use if you want customized instruction for your VFD. I am using a ABB ACS350 that I have on hand.

    Bruce Norton

  12. #12
    MaDeuce is offline Plastic
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    Bruce,

    I am currently trying to diagnose a problem in the Bulletin 709 starter on my 13" Clausing/Colchester. The diagram inside the 709 box matches the diagram in the manual you provided a link for. I'm going to do my best to repair the starter, but will go the VFD route if the parts are too expensive. One way or another, a VFD is inevitable.

    I'll probably try to find a VFD less expensive than an ABB, but I am very interested in how you ended up wiring/configuring your setup. Would you mind sharing a little more specifics about it? I am completely ignorant of starters, VFDs, etc., so even the most obvious pointers would be helpful.

    When you say the motor will be connected for high-speed only, I guess that means that the VFD connects only to A2, B2, and C2 on the motor and that A3, B3, and C3 are shorted together? Then, the VFD controls the speed over the A2, B2, C2 connection...

    I assume that you feed the Bulletin 801 limit switch to a DI on the VFD that handles start/stop?

    Where I'm confused at the moment is how you connect the Bulletin 365 two speed reversing switch. What / how many DIs do you use and how? One DI for forward/revers, and one for fast/slow? Or...? I know it has to be straightforward, but it isn't obvious to me yet.

    Finally, you mention using the disconnect to power up/down the VFD. Is it common / recommended to power them down when the machine is not in use? Not knowing any more than I do now, I'd have just left the disconnect on all the time, as I do now with the current setup.

    Thanks,
    --Ma

  13. #13
    Joe H is offline Cast Iron
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    Default Colchester 2 speed

    Guys,

    I have a 13" Clausing Colchester 2 speed geared head. I set it up with a VFD about 5 or 10 years ago.

    I wired the VFD so that the main on/off lever on the lathe powered up the VFD. The VFD output is the Line input to the lathe. I also built a remote control station so that I could easily control the VFD. With the VFD @ 100% all the original lathe speeds are exactly as on the nameplate. The lathe motor can be switched from hi to lo speed using the original control lever. All original lathe controls work as intended.

    Start, Stop, Fwd, Rev, & speed control via the VFD are available from the remote station. This setup has worked out well and I have had no problems with it.

    Some pics attached.

    Joe
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails remote-station-001.jpg   remote-station-005.jpg  

  14. #14
    toolnut is offline Stainless
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    About Powering up the VFD. It is totally acceptable to leave the VFD powered up. If you use the lathe daily then this is fine. I use my lathe maybe once a month and I power the VFD down with a disconnect. This makes sure no surges reach the vfd from our electrical storms. I also have a 10 year old grandson who likes to turn machine cranks. All my machines have disconects and I keep all of them off until I want to use a machine. I hope this will make the shop a safer place for the grandson. I want him to learn about machines but I want him to be safe along the way.
    Bruce Norton

  15. #15
    toolnut is offline Stainless
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    MaDuece,
    I sent you a PM. My drawings are too large to post here. I have the drawings made but have not installed the VFD on my Colchester 13" lathe with the two speed motor and the two speed reversing drum switch.

    I have the circuit designed such that no other components are needed and the mag starter is not used. I used two preset speeds in the VFD such that one is high and the other low motor speeds. The drum switch is used to start, stop and reverse the motor.

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